BioShock Infinite ending explained: What does it all mean?

by Paul Verhoeven Featured 247 Comments 25 Votes 54008 Views 28/03/2013 Back to Articles

I've just finished BioShock Infinite for the third time. That's note an idle claim, either: I'm serious. And I've listened to every vox recording, poured over every clue, and even taken fastidious notes. And whilst the ending of the game is unnervingly superb, it's also a lot to process. Here, then, is my explanation for those of you who've finished the game. If you haven't gotten to the end yet, for the love of GOD, back away until then. You won't regret it.

EPIC SPOILERS AHEAD.







SERIOUSLY. TURN BACK NOW UNLESS YOU’VE FINISHED THE GAME.







We know that in every universe, after Little Big Horn, Booker comes to a crossroads, and heads to the river to be baptised. In universes where he accepts, he becomes ashamed of his past and his sins, and becomes Comstock, to hide his crimes and start anew. At some point he meets Lutec, who helps create Columbia. years of experiments, however, render him infertile, so he goes back in time to steal his daughter from a universe in which he actually had one - i.e., one in which he REFUSED baptism, had a relationship (which presumably failed and left him alone with child), and was in debt and desperate enough to actually sell his daughter.

In these universes, the ones where he makes the sale, he also tries to get his daughter, Anna, back, hence the finger. He then basically (somehow) rewires his memories and, eventually, is pulled through time by the Lutece twins to rescue his daughter. The twins do this in a desperate move to close off the cycle; every universe is in danger thanks to Comstock, who brings about Armageddon with the help of his daughter, whose powers have been amplified through years of torture and augmentation. There are also recordings that reveal that Comstock intended to kill Lutece. DeWitt is a long shot, but he’s all they’ve got.

Comstock knows DeWitt is coming, and knows how to prepare; by creating the False Shepard prophecy, down to images of the AD mark on DeWitt’s hand (Anna DeWitt; his ‘hair coat’, as the twins put it). And in every universe, over and over and over, the rescue is undertaken but never actually ‘takes’.

The whole journey, for Booker, is basically a journey in which a wreck of a man learns how to be a father. He learns how to make up for selling his baby girl, and as a result, after the credits, wakes up in a world where he can raise her properly, now the right man to do so. After my third play-through, with worryingly vigorous note-taking, there are explicit references to the following things:

  • This entire thing being a chance to finally unite father and daughter (as stated by the twins, to DeWitt).
  • Father and daughter united, as illustrated beautifully when Booker and Elizabeth are at the arcade. Behind a backdrop of parents and kids, many vocally arguing, we have Booker following around his giddy, unknowing daughter. Throughout the game, the only choices we make (which pendant to choose, whether or not to veer towards a violent or passive/merciful action), Elizabeth is there. These aren’t arbitrary choices, they’re Booker making pivotal fatherly decisions. He’s getting a chance to be a father, and he doesn’t even know it. Which makes every choice doubly vital.
  • Ending the cycle. Repeated in three very deliberate iterations throughout the game is the song ‘Will The Circle Be Unbroken’.

At the end, in a selfless act, now ready to make amends and make a truly noble fatherly sacrifice, he allows himself to drown at the core moment where he will become Comstock. All his daughters disappear, apart from Elizabeth, implying she survives, perhaps thanks to her powers.

Then, after the credits, Booker awakes. Unlike all the dream sequences set inside his room on the day he gives away Anna/Elizabeth, the table is different; the calendar page on it states that it’s the day he was to give her away. There is no knocking at the door. There is no ambient music. Suddenly, Booker hears crying, heads into the next room, says ‘Anna?’, and we cut to black.

Booker ends the cycle, and as a result, as the twins predicted, is finally, properly united with his daughter. And after what he learned throughout the game, he’s now the perfect man for the job.

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BioShock Infinite ending explained: What does it all mean? Comments

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So this basically nails it but says it far more articulately and coherently then I could ever even attempt to explain it.
Several more things I've realised and left out:

- According to the tallies of heads flipped on the chalkboard, Booker (our Booker) is the 122nd Booker to try this. And the chime sequence at the lighthouse, at the start? 122. One right, then two, then two.

- Comstock is the same age as Booker; several vox recordings point out that years working in the reactor and around this technology have aged him and made him infertile; he's referred to as 'both a young man and an old one' in a recording.

- Comstock killed his wife. She hates Annabel/Elizabeth and has her confined to the tower, they fight, he kills her and Daisy Fitzroy (a maid who actually got along with Lady Comstock) is framed (again, this is revealed both by the Vox and by the book that came with the special edition, an interview with Daisy just before she escapes). Comstock, therefore, creates the Vox Populi.

- It's implied that the time rift technology has allowed music and tech to be pilfered from the future; the sodom below is probably Comstock's opinion of New York in the 80s, where the destruction foreseen and taken out by old Elizabeth is set. But the tech used for vigors? Rapture. That's my theory.
OK now you've taken it to a new level.

I like that it's the 122nd Booker to do this. Makes complete sense.

I always wondered what the tallies on the board meant.
And it's also, as the twins point out, his 'last chance'. I think they realised somehow that they had 122 chances. And the last one actually works. :D
Also, every pop song played ties in directly to the game. Consider the lyrics to Girls Just Wanna Have Fun, played at the carnival:

Some boys take a beautiful girl,
And hide her away from the rest of the world.
I wanna be the one to walk in the sun.
Oh,girls,
They wanna have fu-un.
Tano
+

PaulV said: Also, every pop song played ties in directly to the game. Consider the lyrics to Girls Just Wanna Have Fun, played at the carnival:
Some boys take a beautiful girl,
And hide her away from the rest of the world.
I wanna be the one to walk in the sun.
Oh,girls,
They wanna have fu-un.



Me reading your posts, one by one:

I love everything you have said and pointed out but I would like to hear your theory on what Elizabeth said about there being some consistences but everything else is different. Was she saying that the first bioshock game was just another reality that they lived where she was a little sister and song bird was a big daddy and Jack is Booker?

CapnMashy said: I love everything you have said and pointed out but I would like to hear your theory on what Elizabeth said about there being some consistences but everything else is different. Was she saying that the first bioshock game was just another reality that they lived where she was a little sister and song bird was a big daddy and Jack is Booker?



I would think that considering we saw Rapture at one point that one signify that yes, perhaps it is another version of Columbia in another universe, seeing as though they are all gate-ways to the same place but in different times.
My mind was blown by this ending and seeing Rapture and thinking about all the similarities between the two stories, and perhaps Rapture is one of the 122 times that he was trying to get her back but just got extremely warped.
CapnMashy, I love that idea. That there are billions or permutations of their story, doomed to keep going until someone breaks the circle (i.e., Booker #122).

One of the first lines from the twins (they row you to the island, after all), is that Dewitt doesn't row; a line prompted when the female Lutece asks if he can help. Male Lutece says "he doesn't row". She says "Oh". Then he says, importantly: "No. He DOESN'T row". And she says "Ah. I see what you mean." That's actually her casting her mind back over 121 Bookers, and recalling that not once has Booker ever helped row the boat for them. Gorgeous stuff. And there are hundreds of little implications and throwaway cues like this that make multiple playthroughs all the more complex and wonderful.

Like I said, after everything is over, what we have is Booker in a totally Comstock-free reality, and (potentially) Elizabeth, out there somewhere, doing her thing. And there's three DLCs planned; I smell a reunion. :D
Don't read too much into the rapture scene, rapture was independent from all countries while columbia seceded from the union and wanted revenge on the united states. Also when elizabeth uses rapture to kill the bird it shows that rapture and columbia exist at the same time. Did anyone else pickup on the reference to the old movie(I think it was called albatross) in the game a few times?
incase anyone wants a graph version of this i created one earlier today its on tinyurl.com/...
Hey again - so after trawling through several more vox recordings and other clues, turns out it's extremely likely that Comstock's wife argued with him because he was becoming psychotic with power, rounding up political opposition and digging mass graves. She disagreed, he killed her, blamed Fitzroy. Basically proving that out of the two, it's DeWitt that chose salvation, by hiding away from society. Jesus. This game just gets better. Now for playthrough #4, in 1999 mode!
Holy balls, you did a great job of explaining that ending. I loved the game and it's ending. I was totally mindblown by the way they wrapped it up. You put it all into words I didn't have, thank you
Hey, PaulIV, remember that moment in the ending right before you get drowned by Elizabeths? Booker doesn't recognize the one standing right in front of him and speaking with him. And one more thing - that Elizabeth isn't wearing any pendant at all. Looks like she's not the one who was accompanying us during the game. And when Elizabeths start to disappear, the one that spoke with us seems to remain (though you can't be sure cause the final note and the black screen leave us perplexed).
Any idea?
OK now that I've been thinking more and more about this maybe Booker isn't Jack but he's the big daddy... I mean he follows around Elizabeth protecting her and she collects things for him just as the little sisters did plus his initials are B.D. The only thing I can't place is who song bird would be in my theory about the other games.
^^ That's exactly the ending I expected! Booker shopping online!

But back to the game, Did they finish on a different timeline That hey started on?

and and and, the priest that baptizes Booker at the start is the same at the end... He would recognize him surely because he becomes the "prophet"... But he looks blind?

oh and PaulV... You're my hero.
hah! Thanks dude. I think the last universe they're in is basically a core universe, like Earth Zero or whatever, where everything in this multiverse spills out from. There's several references to pulling a weed out by the roots (Fitzroy uses this reference a few times), so that's what Lizzy and Booker do. Which, to coin a cheesy as hell but true phrase, lets new life grow (after the credits). :D
I've been trying to get this out of my mind for a bit now and see if anyone heard the same vox recordings. At Wounded Knee Booker/Comstock was accused of having indian blood by his fellow soldiers and at that point was never fully trusted. Comstock states that he sets out to kill as many indians as possible (to prove his loyalty to America?). I'm not sure if that's something Comstock made up since it's during the point in the game where you question his involvement in that battle.

It is also later revealed that Booker speaks Sioux and helps the bounty hunter that Comstock hired to hunt Booker/Fitzroy. As a result the bounty hunter joins the Vox Populi (in the Booker martyr universe).

Towards the end you also hear that the Letuces are the same person who intially found tears and were able to communicate with each other. They setup (with Comstock) the elaborate plan to get Anna DeWitt from Booker just so they can meet face to face by utilizing Comstock's fortune. This motive leads them to be betrayed by Comstock who sabotages one of their experiments (trapping them between universes).

Just some comments. It's ridiculous that Booker never rows, chose heads 121 times and gets ball #77 everytime. It's like the Letuces are experimenting to see what is a constant and what is a variable with every iteration. I'm assuming at the end the changing variable was that the Elizabeth from the future gives Booker the songbird card? It's also ironic that Booker drowns Comstock and then gets drowned in the end.
A great interpretation.

The only think that's a bit foggy is the "core universe" idea -- the idea that there is one universe amidst the multiverse where actions taken in it are dispositive as to branches that may appear in other universes. It's true that there is the talk of taking things up by the root, but this isn't very well explained in the game, I think.
Great article, really helped me understand how all of it wraps up.

"...one in which he REFUSED baptism, had a relationship (which presumably failed and left him alone with child)"

I'm on my second playthrough and while idling around, Elizabeth asked Booker if there was a lady in his life and he responded that she died while giving birth. I don't know if that was a lie he was telling but interesting nonetheless.
Hey, kind of an aside here but I'm sure there are several references in game to a book called 'The Devil in The White City' and The World's Columbian Exposition in general. Right when you reach Columbia a shoe shine box floats down (containing a recording), the man getting his shoes shined is a reference to Frederick Law Olmsted who did the landscaping to the fair. Just thought it was interesting.

PaulV said: hah! Thanks dude. I think the last universe they're in is basically a core universe, like Earth Zero or whatever, where everything in this multiverse spills out from. There's several references to pulling a weed out by the roots (Fitzroy uses this reference a few times), so that's what Lizzy and Booker do. Which, to coin a cheesy as hell but true phrase, lets new life grow (after the credits).



Going to get really geeky now. This reminded me of an episode of ST:TNG. Worf is travelling back to Enterprise and when he gets there, things starting changing around on him and only he is aware. Uniforms change color or rank, history is different, some people don't exist. It is determined that at some point on his journey back to the ship he intersected a 'point' in space/time that caused infinite branching and that he was jumping between these dimensions. They go back to that one 'point' and there are all those Enterprises and in order to fix the branching he has to return to his original dimension prior to that point. Hmm, I wonder if this was the inspiration for Infinite? [WTF]
That explanation was GREAT, but there's still two questions which remain unanswered for me:

I realize that there are multiple bookers, each trying to rescue his daughter, but what is it that makes this booker successful while the others failed? Is it some intervention by the Lutece twins? Is it a choice this one made differently than the others?

Also, if the Lutece twins are just different forms of Lutece from different dimensions, shouldn't there be an infinite number of Lutece twins? Why is it just these two that hop between the multiverse?
Another thing you guys could maybe help clarify (lol)

So, we know that tons of bookers have tried this and failed. Are the lutece twins just bringing a different version of booker back in time to a constant Columbia universe to try again?

Or are they bringing a different booker to a different columbia universe; there are also thousands of Comstocks, so each one kidnaps the baby from a different booker, and the twins are then bringing that specific booker to the specific columbia the baby was stolen to?

Also, with all the tear hopping that Elizabeth and Booker do, do they eventually end up in the original universe they started from? Cause if not shouldn't there be another Elizabeth in the "Booker dies for the cause" universe?
I have been thinking about the different versions of the main players in all the bioshock games. Are they counterparts of each other in the multiverse?
Such as: is Fink a version of Fontaine (Rapture) and Fitzroy or Slate a version of Atlas (Rapture)?
I like @CapnMAshy theory about B.D. = Big Daddy or Booker Dewitt.

Also, I want to know more about Jeremiah Fink. Fink is as slick and slimy as Fontaine, they both developed enhancing tonics (Plasmids/Vigor) for purchase and sell them in similarly styled vending machines. I dont think its a coincidence that even the sounds are similar from the vending machines in both universes.
It wouldn't make sense that any version of booker would be present in the original bioshock games as they take place decades after the events of infinite.
During the coin toss you are marked as 123 on PS3
Dude i love this game and i think your right on most if not all parts i wish it would have gone farther ibto the twins story though im still confused at how and what they were. I also want to point out its possible he never hot to see elizabeth again and just chose to drown himself so no chance would appear.

SODeezy said: That explanation was GREAT, but there's still two questions which remain unanswered for me:
I realize that there are multiple bookers, each trying to rescue his daughter, but what is it that makes this booker successful while the others failed? Is it some intervention by the Lutece twins? Is it a choice this one made differently than the others?
Also, if the Lutece twins are just different forms of Lutece from different dimensions, shouldn't there be an infinite number of Lutece twins? Why is it just these two that hop between the multiverse?



Who's to say he didn't fail? Every time you die without Elizabeth around to bring you back you, you open up a mysterious door and reappear near where you died.

My interpretation is that you do actually die, and you simply continue on the story in another multiverse where everything happened the exact same way, minus that killing shot.

For all we know the entire game is a long line of failures until one Booker actually makes it through and the previous portions of the game are just skipped so we don't have to play all the way up to where Booker died.

Also I think Bioshock and Bioschock 2 are linked in loosely by thematic elements and "variables", not a direct connection. The same sad tale is told over and over with the ultimate realization that the only way to prevent failures like Columbia and Rapture is to end them before they begin.
I was wondering how killing a Booker in the one dimension where Booker already chose not to become Comstock broke the loop. It could be that it indeed was dimension prime, but something does not seem right about that. One possibility I though of was through our actions in the game we were able to destroy the tower and gives Anna incredible power she would have never been able to get in the timelines where Booker did not succeed to that extent. In the other time lines Booker died somewhere along the way, giving way to the scene where we have to walk though the door when we die, or he became Comstock, or something else. When we die in the game seeing the door and walking though it symbolizes the dimension where we died is only a fuzzy memory and the new dimension is one where we only got slightly hurt from the same battle and the enemies where also slightly less hurt. Anyway, throughout the game Anne says when she was young she was not sure if she created the worlds or opened them. If her powers did become great enough, she may indeed be able to change what is needed to create any world she wanted. If, she was able to do that, then all she would need is a symbol from her Dad that he would be willing to sacrifice who he was to allow her to use her power to break the loop. Anne would never be able to kill her own Dad if that was not his wish no matter how powerful she became. Booker allowing Anne to drown him told Anne that he was indeed OK sacrificing who he was. The other powerful Annes came from other dimensions to watch so they could also witness that he was willing to sacrifice himself. After which they returned to their dimensions to also help change yet more dimensions to the happy ending seen after the credits. Booker sacrificed himself so the world would not burn and so he could live a happy life with his daughter. :'@

Ant911 said: I have been thinking about the different versions of the main players in all the bioshock games. Are they counterparts of each other in the multiverse?
Such as: is Fink a version of Fontaine (Rapture) and Fitzroy or Slate a version of Atlas (Rapture)?
I like @CapnMAshy theory about B.D. = Big Daddy or Booker Dewitt.
Also, I want to know more about Jeremiah Fink. Fink is as slick and slimy as Fontaine, they both developed enhancing tonics (Plasmids/Vigor) for purchase and sell them in similarly styled vending machines. I dont think its a coincidence that even the sounds are similar from the vending machines in both universes.


I really think the similarities with all the different characters for the different games is a big part of this so they can tie the whole series together. @Shane952 Just because the first Bioshock took place decades after this one doesn't mean it still couldn't be another version of them, seeing as while playing you see a few "time tares" with music from later periods which leek into the current time to influence it. For example while playing I saw a tare that was playing the song "Fortunate son" then later you here a woman in the slums singing the same song but in a more gospel style.
So a couple of mistakes I noticed

1) There was only one universe in which Booker refused the Baptism. Thus, he was the only variable in that universe and everything else was constant. Constants and variables, remember.

2) Lutec did create Columbia. She also created a machine which could peer into other universes. Comstock used this machine to peer into the future and in turn crush any opposition. Remember Lutece in one of her recording specifically said she told him that the windows show probabilities and not the future. It was this machine which when upgraded for travel that caused his sterilization. Remember he had been trying to have a child for years without success.

3) After Booker sold his daughter he became somewhat insane and went into a sort of functional vegetable state. He used memories of his past to make sense of the mission the Luteces sent him on.

4) They send him on this mission not to close the cycle but because they are trapped in between universes. Even they said that the cycle can't be closed off. Meaning that even though the game had a good ending, there is an equal chance that events will happen the same way over and over again. They are simply trapped in a loop forced to relive those same decisions.

5) The rapture theory is very much a possibility since all three games share a father daughter relationship. It is possible that Booker was reborn as Andrew Ryan and rejected religion completely.

6) Elizabeth gains her powers from being injured while going through the portal.

7) Elizabeth being imprisoned doesn't give her greater powers rather the device collects her energy and stores it for future use. Her powers are what cause the destruction of New York. It's also why when the tower is destroyed, her powers return to her.

also I forgot to mention that for my theory about Booker being the Big Daddy, he gets the Sky hook instead of a drill but they both are similar.
Wow thanks to Paul and everyone in the comments. This really helped me tie some loose ends together. Also, all of really cool clues mentioned are awesome. I'm in love with this game. I'm going to have to play again!

SODeezy said: That explanation was GREAT, but there's still two questions which remain unanswered for me:
I realize that there are multiple bookers, each trying to rescue his daughter, but what is it that makes this booker successful while the others failed? Is it some intervention by the Lutece twins? Is it a choice this one made differently than the others?
Also, if the Lutece twins are just different forms of Lutece from different dimensions, shouldn't there be an infinite number of Lutece twins? Why is it just these two that hop between the multiverse?



Hey hey! Re: the twins, they're killed by Comstock before they can spread out to other universes and meet their other selves, I think. It's revealed that Lady Lutece uses the particles she discovers to 'tap out messages' to her male version in our Bookers universe; it's that male Lutece who collects the child. When they die, they basically (due presumably to their experimentation) disperse and become something... else. Their graves have no bodies in them, implying they now transcend physicality.

As to what made this Booker successful? I think it's implied that each time, Booker makes a degree of a rescue; the martyr Booker dies at Comstock house during the revolution, but we also see many in the lighthouses. I think the point is that even if the rescue is successful, never before has Booker actually been willing to drown himself, which is what cuts the cord and allows the actual rebirth constantly brought up through symbols and texts and statements in the game.

Oh, and re: the pendant, I'm pretty sure she loses it sometime during the torture in the machine, I'll have to confirm that though. As each pendant symbol (a cage and a songbird, both prisons of sorts) represents incarceration, it makes sense that when Liz becomes powerful enough to become truly free, by realising who and what she actually is, the prison motif would be dropped from her throat (a literal collar).

Mahmoods26 said: So a couple of mistakes I noticed
1) There was only one universe in which Booker refused the Baptism. Thus, he was the only variable in that universe and everything else was constant. Constants and variables, remember.
2) Lutec did create Columbia. She also created a machine which could peer into other universes. Comstock used this machine to peer into the future and in turn crush any opposition. Remember Lutece in one of her recording specifically said she told him that the windows show probabilities and not the future. It was this machine which when upgraded for travel that caused his sterilization. Remember he had been trying to have a child for years without success.
3) After Booker sold his daughter he became somewhat insane and went into a sort of functional vegetable state. He used memories of his past to make sense of the mission the Luteces sent him on.
4) They send him on this mission not to close the cycle but because they are trapped in between universes. Even they said that the cycle can't be closed off. Meaning that even though the game had a good ending, there is an equal chance that events will happen the same way over and over again. They are simply trapped in a loop forced to relive those same decisions.
5) The rapture theory is very much a possibility since all three games share a father daughter relationship. It is possible that Booker was reborn as Andrew Ryan and rejected religion completely.
6) Elizabeth gains her powers from being injured while going through the portal.
7) Elizabeth being imprisoned doesn't give her greater powers rather the device collects her energy and stores it for future use. Her powers are what cause the destruction of New York. It's also why when the tower is destroyed, her powers return to her.



1) There wasn't just one Booker; Booker doing the rescue is born from the refusal moment, and we see many others in the ocean of lighthouses.

2) I never said she didn't. Unless I did, in which case, I am an idiot: she absolutely did provide the tech to make it fly, but Comstock was the mastermind (well, the producer to her director, really).

3) I wouldn't say insane, and there's no implication he goes vegetative, otherwise his body wouldn't be able to run, jump, etc. It's more likely he just blanks it out and keeps doing cases.

4) If they're trapped, they have to close the cycle or they'll be stuck for perpetuity. Also, there are many references to them possibly doing it because it'll unite Anna and Booker, and implications that the debt to wipe away isn't just Bookers, but also the Luteces, for helping create the entire problem. They want to help themselves AND Booker, they're not monsters.

5) Interesting. Doesn't change anything, but adds a nice new layer.

6) Agreed.

7) Yeah, i was collapsing that entire mechanic down to a simple phrase, don't worry, I know how that whole system works. :)
So who is Elizabeths mother is it actually lady Comstock or someone else?
I don't know why a lot of people think that Elizabeth survived. Why would she? She ended every chance she could ever have become what she did.
As every Elizabeth blinks out of existence during the final cutscene, it is to a piano key. On the last piano key, the screen is black. I don't think this is meant to be a cliff-hanger, but is rather to show the cycle ENDED. As in, the screen is black, because technically there is NOTHING to see, all realities that could possibly show that particular moment are GONE. There is only the one true reality left. That's why, after the credits, we see it.

biofanz2 said: So who is Elizabeths mother is it actually lady Comstock or someone else?



All we know for sure, based on the facts given in the game, is that Bookers wife died giving birth to Anna. Lady Comstock was potentially the same woman, who knows, but the tech made Comstock infertile, and Comstock kidnapped Anna and claimed she was a 'miracle baby'.

Jimothy said: I don't know why a lot of people think that Elizabeth survived. Why would she? She ended every chance she could ever have become what she did.
As every Elizabeth blinks out of existence during the final cutscene, it is to a piano key. On the last piano key, the screen is black. I don't think this is meant to be a cliff-hanger, but is rather to show the cycle ENDED. As in, the screen is black, because technically there is NOTHING to see, all realities that could possibly show that particular moment are GONE. There is only the one true reality left. That's why, after the credits, we see it.



Heh, that's why I chucked in the Inception comparison; you don't know if the top falls or not. We'll see when the DLC comes out. :)

PaulV said:

Jimothy said: I don't know why a lot of people think that Elizabeth survived. Why would she? She ended every chance she could ever have become what she did.
As every Elizabeth blinks out of existence during the final cutscene, it is to a piano key. On the last piano key, the screen is black. I don't think this is meant to be a cliff-hanger, but is rather to show the cycle ENDED. As in, the screen is black, because technically there is NOTHING to see, all realities that could possibly show that particular moment are GONE. There is only the one true reality left. That's why, after the credits, we see it.


Heh, that's why I chucked in the Inception comparison; you don't know if the top falls or not. We'll see when the DLC comes out.



Actually, that ending is explained thoroughly, and it turns out it is reality. www.liveforfilms.com/...
Additional: Fink is the one who sabotages the machinery, 'killing' the Lutece twins. But as Lady Lutece puts it:

'Comstock has sabotaged our contraption. Yet... we are not dead. A theory: we are scattered amongst the possibility space. But my brother and I are together, and so, I am content. He is not. The business with the girl lies unresolved. But perhaps there is one who can finish it in our stead'.

One wants to help, one doesn't feel the need. Two sides of a coin.
Whats up with the nose bleed? I can't understand. Can someone explain please?

PaulV said:
Hey hey! Re: the twins, they're killed by Comstock before they can spread out to other universes and meet their other selves, I think. It's revealed that Lady Lutece uses the particles she discovers to 'tap out messages' to her male version in our Bookers universe; it's that male Lutece who collects the child. When they die, they basically (due presumably to their experimentation) disperse and become something... else. Their graves have no bodies in them, implying they now transcend physicality.



When you run into the Lutece's for the first time in Columbia (the heads or tails scene), afterwards you come across a statue of Lady Lutece which appears to be having the same visual effect that a tear has, possibly implying that Lady Lutece somehow uses inatimate objects to portray messages to Booker?
If you think about it all we did was close one "weed" of dewitt becoming comstock, there is still an infinite field of "weeds". Like elizabeth said "we swim in different oceans but end up on the same shore", meaning dewitt sleeps in on the day of the baptism, misses it, and still becomes comstock or president or gets hit by a train or any other infinite number of outcomes. All we saw after the credits was a universe where dewitt "slept in". All we did was play through and close a single focal point. Let me explain it like this, I decide I want to go to the grocery store, I have infinite possible ways to get there and each way spawns infinite possibilities of things happening, lets say I decide to skip to the store, when I get home I decide it was a mistake so I go back and kill myself when I walk out the front door and begin to skip, but that only closed one focal point, it diddnt close the one where I walk out the back door and skip there. Basically you can never close an outcome because there are infinite paths to reach it.
To add on, even if I went all the way back to stop from being born so I wouldnt skip and closed that focal point, there still would be infinite points where I'm born. In universe A I stop my parents from meeting in paris closing all those possibilities, but in universe B they meet in london. its infinite upon infinite possibilities and each time you close one an there is an infinite amount of possibilities still there. Each action creates an infinite amount of possibilities that makes an infinite amount of possibilities and this goes on infinitely.
The whole time I thought for sure the handyman was going to end up being booker. I swear I'll have to go back and play again but the handyman says several quotes...along the lines of "no you can't be real.." and one i know for sure he says is "thats my life". It's a two part quote but I know for sure the 2nd part is "that's my life". I'm surprised I'm the only one that noticed this. Of course then you question there were tons of handymen you fought....but did they ever really die? you just see them short circuit out then fall over.

Regardless even if they were all different handyman they could have all come from different worlds. This ties in well with the Big Daddies existing. If Booker Dewitt in alternate worlds becomes Big Daddy (Booker Dewitt B.D. Big Daddy B.D.) then it would make sense he becomes something like handyman in this game on alternate worlds as well. The first time you encounter the handyman he is trying to steal Elizabeth not kill her.
Also it's interesting you all assumed elizabeth survived the end of the game when me and the other poster immediately assumed she did not. Why would she? By killing the version of himself that becomes comstock he erased all versions of elizabeth that developed special powers. Her special powers are directly linked to her going through the portal that day (and presumably linked to her losing her missing finger). Therefore any elizabeth that could have been there that day to drown him would be erased as they all had the special powers to travel there to do so.
I thought I should add this about rapture, if you look at this as a cutout of infinite infinites, each universe you jumped through was very similar to the last, so in the final when you drowned the bird it showed that columbia and rapture existed at the same time, meaning that they had nothing to do with each other. If one existed and the other diddnt elizabeth could have left the bird behind and it would no longer be a problem. So while youre up in the sky bioshock 1& 2 are happening someone beneath you independently beneath the ocean. But if you look at infinite infinites as a whole one can exist while the other does not or they can both exist at the same time. Also as a whole that would mean dewitt could by any person in rapture from the hero to a nobody who you slaughter, but that's only because there are infinite universes.
great analysis I was really not expecting booker to be Elizabeth's father I was.thinking they would run off to parace and be s couple I didn't know how I felt but after reading this and truly understanding the ending after booker is finally united with his daughter after the credits I think it was a great ending
^^ sorry about the terrible spelling, I was in a hurry and diddnt bother to check my swypes.
I'm not empirically stating that Elizabeth survives, i'm just saying it's possible! Also, unless the DLC reveals that somehow there are other Comstocks, then no. The entire point of the ending was to kill every Comstock reality.

Adrian414 said: Whats up with the nose bleed? I can't understand. Can someone explain please?



The nosebleeds happen whenever Booker deals with dying in another universe, I believe; Comstock and Martyr Booker being two prime examples.
I was just starting a new play through and I just got into the city looking through the first pair of binoculars and i saw he twins so i wonder if they are hidden in all the other ones. thought i should point out.
Do you think the anger he had when he drowned Comstock was actually angry at himself for letting things become this way? I know he didn't really grasp everything yet, but it may have been an underlying feeling.

DustinMc said: Do you think the anger he had when he drowned Comstock was actually angry at himself for letting things become this way? I know he didn't really grasp everything yet, but it may have been an underlying feeling.



Yeah, there's many instances where he phrases his anger at Comstock in a weird way, like it's applicable to both of them. Similarly, Comstock chews out Booker for stuff he feels guilty for personally.
Hey Paul, what's the argument in support of "adult" Elizabeth surviving after drowning Booker (Comstock)? The game is clever in that it doesn't show Elizabeth disappear after the drowning occurs, but I can't make sense of how the grown-up version can still be alive. You could say it has something to do with her powers, but wouldn't her powers be gone because Comstock never lived, thus Elizabeth never got her powers? While I ask this, I love the idea that the story ends with Booker getting a new chance to raise Anna. I've heard elsewhere that people didn't like that that would mean the Elizabeth we know and love would never exist, but that's what Elizabeth wanted because she wanted a life outside of Columbia and she will get that as Booker's Anna.
It was noted that Booker and the Big Daddy's both have the same initials. I would assume then that the big sister in the following game would have a likeness to the songbird? Maybe not, maybe the songbird is more like the lady that imprisoned the little sisters in the first place. Also Rapture is in another dimension, different than Columbia. The tears that Elizabeth/Anna can make sends them to other possibilities, Rapture being one of them. As the title would hint "Infinite" is the number of possibilities that could happen.

**EDIT**

After playing through a few more times I've realized that when Elizabeth brings Booker to the baptism the second time and KILLS him, she is killing the Booker that becomes Comstock! Well, you already knew that. What you may not know is...

The beginning of the game until you arrive in Columbia are made-up memories that Booker develops to make sense of traveling through a tear to the Columbia Dimension, the Dimension that exists because of Comstocks existence. 1-2-2 ringing of the bells is related to the number of times Booker has traveled to Columbia, same as the coin. Why that many times? In the Dimension where Booker refuses the baptism, events happen in his life that end up giving him a child (other dimensions probably have him w/o a child just the same but lets ignore those). What the game doesn't outright tell us is that a choice was made. Give the baby to Comstock or Comstock travels to the dimension and KIDNAPS her (thus Elizabeth looses a finger).

So to bring me back to prior paragraph. The booker that refused the baptism and had the child never had any run-in's with Comstock. No debt, no kidnapping. THAT is why we hear baby Anna crying. The ONLY Booker that died at the baptism was the one who made the choice to become Comstock. Unfortunately because the Elizabeth we know and love only came into being (raised) as we know her because of Comstock - that version of her is gone forever.

Hopefully that explains everything :)
The songbird COULD be a combination of booker and comstock. The safety of the girl along with her imprisonment.

I say that because the single notes that make up the tune whenever baby anna is the focus I believe is the same tune that calls the songbird.

Mahmoods26 said: So a couple of mistakes I noticed

3) After Booker sold his daughter he became somewhat insane and went into a sort of functional vegetable state. He used memories of his past to make sense of the mission the Luteces sent him on.
4) They send him on this mission not to close the cycle but because they are trapped in between universes. Even they said that the cycle can't be closed off. Meaning that even though the game had a good ending, there is an equal chance that events will happen the same way over and over again. They are simply trapped in a loop forced to relive those same decisions.
6) Elizabeth gains her powers from being injured while going through the portal.



3) "The mind of the subject will desperately struggle to create memories where none exist..."
―Rosalind Lutece, Barriers to Trans-Dimensional Travel, 1889
Booker's mind re-created the story "Bring us the girl, and we will wipe away the debt...." from his past, even at the ending the twins note on it.

4) In a recording Rosalind Lutece says something along the lines of her "brother" feeling bad for what they did to the girl and even tho she feels its a bad idea and will lead to crying she will help him set things right cause he is her "brother".

6) Existing in two universe has the same person at the same time, Once again Rosalind Lutece says something about this in a recording. A little bit like the twins I guess.

Adam280 said: I was just starting a new play through and I just got into the city looking through the first pair of binoculars and i saw he twins so i wonder if they are hidden in all the other ones. thought i should point out.



If you get a good look at it is Robert Lutece, Changing to Rosalind Lutece.
Ok but if Booker drowns, thus preventing the split into the Booker we know who sells his daughter, and becoming Comstock, then how is Anna ever born? It is assumed that she is born AFTER Booker refuses baptism (and in that universe). So if he never gets baptized (or has a chance to refuse it) then he never has a daughter.

In other words, the ending after the credits is not compatible with the ending before the credits. Baby Anna should not exist if the baptism ends in his death. :P
Booker+Baptism = Comstock (infertile, no children)
Booker-Baptism = Booker (has a daughter, Anna)

Booker+DEATH @ Baptism= no daughter, dead.

See how that makes no sense?

Tiffany88 said: Booker+Baptism = Comstock (infertile, no children)
Booker-Baptism = Booker (has a daughter, Anna)
Booker+DEATH @ Baptism= no daughter, dead.
See how that makes no sense?



Not really, no; are you saying that Booker would never have had a child if he'd not been to the baptism? What we're looking at is Booker coming to in a universe where he's lost his wife at childbirth (presumably), but because there's no possibility of there being Comstock, there's no possibility of his SELLING his daughter because the offer to buy her never happens. And because of what he's been through, he's now (presumably) the Booker who'd die for her and protect her, rather than ever give her away. It's the ultimate second chance scenario, and I don't see how it's not credible, given how the bulk of the plot is basically magic.
I see what you're saying... but magic is such a cheap plot device.
So basically at the end we are watching a universe in which Booker never went to the baptism at all (thus he couldn't be drowned) and had a baby and they lived happily ever after?
Also, is the Booker that wakes up after the credits the same Booker we've been playing as? or is that scene just a glimpse of a different Booker, one that never went to the baptism at all?

Tiffany88 said: I see what you're saying... but magic is such a cheap plot device.
So basically at the end we are watching a universe in which Booker never went to the baptism at all (thus he couldn't be drowned) and had a baby and they lived happily ever after?



I'm saying that in terms of what we're seeing, it's irrelevant whether or not he went to a baptism, because if he did, it was a different baptism. It's irrelevant whether or not he lives happily ever after, as I suspect Levine has plans for him and Anna/Elizabeth. What the final scene is saying is that given what Booker has been through, and what he learned, and what he was willing to do, the circle has been broken. Him waking up in a world where he's now capable of doing the right thing isn't a cop-out of an ending simply because it's hopeful (which, correct me if I'm wrong, might be where your line of reasoning is headed?) :)

Tiffany88 said: Also, is the Booker that wakes up after the credits the same Booker we've been playing as? or is that scene just a glimpse of a different Booker, one that never went to the baptism at all?



I've been talking through this with peeps at 2K, and the view is that it's our Booker; his need to see Anna is the need of a man who knows where he is, what he's been through. In fact, the first thing you see is the calendar page, so he knows when and where he is. :D
Elizabeth, to Booker during the final minutes of the game, in his ruined office:

"You shared this room with your grief for almost twenty years. Until one day, a man came to you, and offered you a chance at redemption. A chance for us to be together again'.

It's this line that really gives him the drive to kill Comstock for good, and then, after the credits, there they are. Together. In his office, with a whole life to live properly together.

Well, unless the DLC contradicts that. :D
From the twins to DeWitt, after the pull him through the portal just before he wakes on the boat at the start of the game:

"He branded himself, perhaps as some sort of penance. Don't see the point. What's done is done. I suppose it's his hair-shirt, as he is ours'.

A hair shirt was a garment of rough cloth made from goats' hair and worn in the form of a shirt or as a girdle around the loins, as a form of penance. The Lutece twins are trying to make up for the mess they made, though the bulk of the guilt appears to be on the brother, who is the one pushing for helping Anna and Booker re-unite. That's their whole mission.

PaulV said:

Tiffany88 said: Also, is the Booker that wakes up after the credits the same Booker we've been playing as? or is that scene just a glimpse of a different Booker, one that never went to the baptism at all?


I've been talking through this with peeps at 2K, and the view is that it's our Booker; his need to see Anna is the need of a man who knows where he is, what he's been through. In fact, the first thing you see is the calendar page, so he knows when and where he is.

+ The way he says "Anna is that you?" If it was a different Booker that never gave away Anna why would he ask that?
I really don't get the notion of the scene after the credits being 'the one true reality', if Booker died at the baptism he would never have gotten the opportunity to become Comstock or father Anna. Maybe an Alice in Wonderland moment?

immature said: I really don't get the notion of the scene after the credits being 'the one true reality', if Booker died at the baptism he would never have gotten the opportunity to become Comstock or father Anna. Maybe an Alice in Wonderland moment?




As I said a few comments up:

I'm saying that in terms of what we're seeing, it's irrelevant whether or not he went to a baptism, because if he did, it was a different baptism. It's irrelevant whether or not he lives happily ever after, as I suspect Levine has plans for him and Anna/Elizabeth. What the final scene is saying is that given what Booker has been through, and what he learned, and what he was willing to do, the circle has been broken.

:)
***Possible Bioshock 2 Spoilers ahead***
I'd like to point out something that occurred to me just after beating the game. When Elizabeth/Anna and Booker are exploring the doorways to different universes, she mentions 'constants and variables' amongst the multi-verses. The constants are 'A lighthouse a man and a city'. This can easily be related to the original Bioshock's lighthouse, Jack and Rapture itself. The next constants she mentions are 'You, Me, Songbird and Columbia'.
Obviously Jack is to Booker as Rapture is to Columbia but what about Elizabeth and Songbird? After some thinking it suddenly hit me.

Elizabeth is to Eleanor...


As Songbird is to Subject Delta!

BioShock Infinite ending explained: What does it all mean?

Perhaps, though technically, Songbird is also an actual character. :D
I have a theory about Lady Comstock I would like to share.

I think that the mother of Elizabeth and the lady are the same person. In the universe where Booker doesn't do the baptize, he has Anna and the mother dies giving birth.

In the universe where Booker becomes Comstock he will never have his own child, so she doesn't die giving birth.

This will mean that technically the lady is Anna/Elizibeth's mother but since the one has to die for the other to be born, is the reason why they can't co-excist in the same universe without problems with one another, simply because they can't understand each other. Which makes the Lady hate the girl and go crazy, which also makes her the siren. I recall a moment if I'm correct, where Elizibeth says something about the lady being death and alive, something like that.

And all this stuff being so complicated made it easier to just kill her in stead of explaining her that in another universe this actually is her daughter but that for her being born, she actually would have to die.

It's a bit vague I think, I hope I've explained it good enough for people to understand what I mean. This game is really making my head spin! I love it!

Zina88 said: I have a theory about Lady Comstock I would like to share.
I think that the mother of Elizabeth and the lady are the same person. In the universe where Booker doesn't do the baptize, he has Anna and the mother dies giving birth.
In the universe where Booker becomes Comstock he will never have his own child, so she doesn't die giving birth.
This will mean that technically the lady is Anna/Elizibeth's mother but since the one has to die for the other to be born, is the reason why they can't co-excist in the same universe without problems with one another, simply because they can't understand each other. Which makes the Lady hate the girl and go crazy, which also makes her the siren. I recall a moment if I'm correct, where Elizibeth says something about the lady being death and alive, something like that.
And all this stuff being so complicated made it easier to just kill her in stead of explaining her that in another universe this actually is her daughter but that for her being born, she actually would have to die.
It's a bit vague I think, I hope I've explained it good enough for people to understand what I mean. This game is really making my head spin! I love it!



Excellent theory! I'm totally behind that. Might explain why the ghost is so messed up. Man. This comments section is freaking incredible. :D
The problem is, though, that in a multiverse context, which is what the game is suggesting, there really are infinite possibilities due to there being an infinite number of universes. There is no "core" universe that is dispositive in determining timelines in the other universes of the multiverse -- that isn't what the multiverse is, per physics theory. Therefore, it's not possible per multiverse theory for Booker's death in that specific universe to preclude the entire thing happening again in a multiverse of infinite possibilities. It can't be precluded like that -- you can't preclude infinity.

I think that it "works" from a narrative perspective, but it plays a bit fast and loose with multiverse theory.

knightblas said: The problem is, though, that in a multiverse context, which is what the game is suggesting, there really are infinite possibilities due to there being an infinite number of universes. There is no "core" universe that is dispositive in determining timelines in the other universes of the multiverse -- that isn't what the multiverse is, per physics theory. Therefore, it's not possible per multiverse theory for Booker's death in that specific universe to preclude the entire thing happening again in a multiverse of infinite possibilities. It can't be precluded like that -- you can't preclude infinity.
I think that it "works" from a narrative perspective, but it plays a bit fast and loose with multiverse theory.



The "core" universe is the start of the branch of trees, Where that decision has multiple outcomes. So anywhere that a decision creates more universes could then be refereed to has a core universe for all decisions after that point, Cut away this branch and ever thing after will cease to exist.
The AD on his hand means Anne Dewitt

Kamon62 said: ***Possible Bioshock 2 Spoilers ahead***
As Songbird is to Subject Delta!



Correct me if I'm wrong but it there was video files that prove and disproves that subject delta is Eleanor true biological father, Making him more like Booker and I would put the songbird more on the lines of the Big sisters, Has they and the Big daddies where given the same roles to protect the little sisters.

Zina88 said:
I think that the mother of Elizabeth and the lady are the same person. In the universe where Booker doesn't do the baptize, he has Anna and the mother dies giving birth.

This will mean that technically the lady is Anna/Elizibeth's mother but since the one has to die for the other to be born, is the reason why they can't co-excist in the same universe without problems with one another, simply because they can't understand each other. Which makes the Lady hate the girl and go crazy, which also makes her the siren. I recall a moment if I'm correct, where Elizibeth says something about the lady being death and alive, something like that.

And all this stuff being so complicated made it easier to just kill her in stead of explaining her that in another universe this actually is her daughter but that for her being born, she actually would have to die.



I like the first part, Explains why they also look quite a like, or is that just me?

Second part, What Elizabeth was saying that everyone is either Alive or Dead, They are simply both, Where someone died in a universe the same person lived in another. The reason she became a siren was that Elizabeth brought her from a universe She created where she had poured all her hatred of her mother into cause of her calling her a b**tard child and not wanting her to be raised under her roof.

Edit: The third part, At this point in the game Elizabeth is unaware of her back round, All she knows is the Comstocks aren't her biological parents.
What I understand is that they're in a core universe, where all the branches can be stopped, but the baptism being a constant and refusing plus accepting it a variable, how can he survive in another timeline, if he actually drowns any Comstock AND Booker. And how does he remember what happened, based on him saying "Anna?".

Also in the very last scene, Booker turns around, asking "Who are you?", meaning that the Elizabeth in front of us isn't OUR Elizabeth, or is he saying that to the other 2 Elizabeths appearing?
I actually read quite a bit into the rapture scene. I see this as kind of using the same ideas from Lost as far as a 'variables and constants'. If you've seen the show you should know what that means.

Yes, there's variables, but, as was explicitly stated in the ending, there are constants as well (the man, the lighthouse, the city). I mean, if you accept that the Letuce's are the 'same person', but born as a completely different SEX (a pretty fricken huge variable), is it THAT much of a stretch that the events of the original Bioshock is simply a different play on the same theme? It's not a stretch to me, it's actually quite plausible if you accept the multiverse idea.

Bioshock Infinite only explores the "what ifs" of the multiverse splits occurring from Booker's baptism or rejection thereof. But we must remember that mulitverses have been splitting forever. They didn't START at Booker's baptism. Thus it is not much of a stretch to see how slight changes in the past could cause Butterfly Effects that make the the constants (the man, the lighthouse, the city) be accompanied with wildly different variables (time, space, etc.) . The 40 year odd difference in something like time is nothing in the context of an infinite scope.

Although it is only inferred, I also feel like it leaves a lot of cool explanations of both Bioshock and vice-versa. It is clear from the game that people can observe and even take things from other versions of the universe. Did you ever wonder how vita-chambers in Bioshock were possible? It seems to me they could easily be a refinement of the technology of pulling 'the dead' out of tears where they survived a fight instead of being killed.

Likewise, at first I was puzzled how plasmid-like technology ended up in Columbia. Since Rapture was observable, the development of plasmids was also observable. I'm not sure if the Letuce's took the technology but it is not too much of a stretch considering they adopted the anti-gravity tech in a similar fashion.

Jon125 said:
Also in the very last scene, Booker turns around, asking "Who are you?", meaning that the Elizabeth in front of us isn't OUR Elizabeth, or is he saying that to the other 2 Elizabeths appearing?



I believe he is talking to all the Elizabeth's that are just entering the frame. But at the same time I'm not sure watching the ending again, goo.gl/... before they go in she's wearing the neck less after she is not!

Edit: Did anyone else notice the breath of air after Booker is drowned/Reborn :P goo.gl/... "He's Zachary Comstock", "He's Booker DeWitt", "No I'm both" When he says that I get chills :P Does he become 'Booker Comstock' or 'Zachary DeWitt' :P a middle ground of both a new branch of the tree breaking the Circle? :D

"That idiot priest needs to learn the difference between baptising a man and drowning one." -Booker

"Theres so many Choices" - Brooker "and they all lead us to the same place" - Elizabeth

I can't help but keep adding to this :P Think I've found my new favorited website

Ryan615 said: I actually read quite a bit into the rapture scene. I see this as kind of using the same ideas from Lost as far as a 'variables and constants'. If you've seen the show you should know what that means.
Yes, there's variables, but, as was explicitly stated in the ending, there are constants as well (the man, the lighthouse, the city). I mean, if you accept that the Letuce's are the 'same person', but born as a completely different SEX (a pretty fricken huge variable), is it THAT much of a stretch that the events of the original Bioshock is simply a different play on the same theme? It's not a stretch to me, it's actually quite plausible if you accept the multiverse idea.
Bioshock Infinite only explores the "what ifs" of the multiverse splits occurring from Booker's baptism or rejection thereof. But we must remember that mulitverses have been splitting forever. They didn't START at Booker's baptism. Thus it is not much of a stretch to see how slight changes in the past could cause Butterfly Effects that make the the constants (the man, the lighthouse, the city) be accompanied with wildly different variables (time, space, etc.) . The 40 year odd difference in something like time is nothing in the context of an infinite scope.
Although it is only inferred, I also feel like it leaves a lot of cool explanations of both Bioshock and vice-versa. It is clear from the game that people can observe and even take things from other versions of the universe. Did you ever wonder how vita-chambers in Bioshock were possible? It seems to me they could easily be a refinement of the technology of pulling 'the dead' out of tears where they survived a fight instead of being killed.
Likewise, at first I was puzzled how plasmid-like technology ended up in Columbia. Since Rapture was observable, the development of plasmids was also observable. I'm not sure if the Letuce's took the technology but it is not too much of a stretch considering they adopted the anti-gravity tech in a similar fashion.



In the records Fink leaves a message to his brother thanking him for the discovery of the tears and how it will make them rich. In another recording he states that in a tear he found 'something' (Can't remember what it was he said it was) that this can change a person but its irreversible Maybe Comstock will want to see this. Take it has you will, But I feel this is strongly pointing to Big Daddies, Which could be how Songbird becomes born. A mix of Machine and Biology!

I feel all this points to Columbia and Rapture being pretty much the same, Both had a big driving force, Big Daddies in the form of Songbird, Plasmids in the form of Vigors, Both funded by rich men, And with out the Lutece Twins its build would of been impossible, Much like Rapture.

The driving force for both seemed to be Freedom in a way, Both where worried about the 'sins' (Shall we say) of man, Columbia was somewhere safe like an Ark till judgement day, While Rapture was also somewhere safe, Safe from Wars, Government, Morality, Where the great isn't constrained by the small. They both seem to be polar opposites of each other on the ideas of their founding, But in a way they are both the same.

Ali_Dumi said:
In the records Fink leaves a message to his brother thanking him for the discovery of the tears and how it will make them rich. In another recording he states that in a tear he found 'something' (Can't remember what it was he said it was) that this can change a person but its irreversible Maybe Comstock will want to see this. Take it has you will, But I feel this is strongly pointing to Big Daddies, Which could be how Songbird becomes born. A mix of Machine and Biology!

Good catch. I would interpret that discovery as plasmids that they rebranded as vigors. You're not going to get rich off of Songbird/Big Daddy tech, but you ARE going to get rich selling extremely expensive Vigors (the most expensive things in the game) in vending machines at every street corner. :)

Ryan615 said:

Ali_Dumi said:
In the records Fink leaves a message to his brother thanking him for the discovery of the tears and how it will make them rich. In another recording he states that in a tear he found 'something' (Can't remember what it was he said it was) that this can change a person but its irreversible Maybe Comstock will want to see this. Take it has you will, But I feel this is strongly pointing to Big Daddies, Which could be how Songbird becomes born. A mix of Machine and Biology!

Good catch. I would interpret that discovery as plasmids that they rebranded as vigors. You're not going to get rich off of Songbird/Big Daddy tech, but you ARE going to get rich selling extremely expensive Vigors (the most expensive things in the game) in vending machines at every street corner.



Your looking inside the box :P I'm not referring to the Big Daddies or Songbird has a way to make money, They are merely the dragon for the princess in the tower. The really money yes can come from stealing tech from other universe and claiming it your own, But... ask yourself this, How much would you pay to bring a loved one back?
PaulV, could you explain to me the meaning of why Bookers nose bleeds? (Along with other people in the world) When his nose bleeds does it mean he remembered a past memory? What about the other people with bleeding noses?
I just want to throw this in, as some people seem to be having some trouble with it. The reason Booker's memories are all ****ed up, is because his reality has been ripped out from under him. His mind therefore does it's best to protect its own sanity, by rearranging his memories till they make sense. The male "twin" talks about it.

The other thing, and this is more or just my understanding. When Elizabeth opens a tear, the way she did it was less them stepping through, and more dragging onto the current reality. This changed later, but anyway. So the multiple versions of the people she had interacted with became synced up. The nose bleeds were when people were having these new/old memories dumped into their mind. Otherwise when you step through to the reality where the vox have their guns their would be another booker/elizabeth running around.

Kamon62 said: ***Possible Bioshock 2 Spoilers ahead***
I'd like to point out something that occurred to me just after beating the game. When Elizabeth/Anna and Booker are exploring the doorways to different universes, she mentions 'constants and variables' amongst the multi-verses. The constants are 'A lighthouse a man and a city'. This can easily be related to the original Bioshock's lighthouse, Jack and Rapture itself. The next constants she mentions are 'You, Me, Songbird and Columbia'.
Obviously Jack is to Booker as Rapture is to Columbia but what about Elizabeth and Songbird? After some thinking it suddenly hit me.
Elizabeth is to Eleanor...

As Songbird is to Subject Delta!


@Kamon62 I really wish you had read my comments first because you just repeated what I have already theorized. But I'm still not sure if I think Booker is Jack I'm leaning towards him being Big Daddy or Delta seeing as the initials are the same B.D. and Elizabeth is a little sister.
Started my second play through and found something I thought was neat. Haven't seen it in the comments here yet, although some of you are bound to have heard it. After you flip the coin for the Luteces, I was counting the hash marks because of a comment posted here a while ago, and I got a text so I put the controller down. After a few seconds of being idle and standing in front of Rosalind, she started talking and saying some awesome stuff.
"We won't leave until you do. You have my word on that."
"If you keep this up, I'll be forced to start repeating myself."

That second one blew my mind

Evan900 said: PaulV, could you explain to me the meaning of why Bookers nose bleeds? (Along with other people in the world) When his nose bleeds does it mean he remembered a past memory? What about the other people with bleeding noses?



Has Elizabeth says in the scene when they open the tear where the gunsmith isn't dead, They simply remembered they died, That is a lot of trauma for a person to deal with.

"When the human body is under stress, blood circulation is increased. This increase also causes a rise in blood pressure that can put blood vessels at risk of breaking. According to Star Publications, the fragile blood vessels in the nose are susceptible to this increase in pressure and as a result burst under the pressure, causing a nosebleed to develop." - eHow.com

Guess this could be the science behind it.

lonjanis said:
The other thing, and this is more or just my understanding. When Elizabeth opens a tear, the way she did it was less them stepping through, and more dragging onto the current reality. This changed later, but anyway. So the multiple versions of the people she had interacted with became synced up. The nose bleeds were when people were having these new/old memories dumped into their mind. Otherwise when you step through to the reality where the vox have their guns their would be another booker/elizabeth running around.



Incorrect, If this case was true then why does Daisy refer to them has imposers, and wouldn't everyone's nose bleed, Has I said above this post its the trauma of remembering that you died. They didn't bring a reality to theirs they went to a new reality, Where Booker chose to side with slade and fought along side the Vox giving his life in the process.

knightblas said: The problem is, though, that in a multiverse context, which is what the game is suggesting, there really are infinite possibilities due to there being an infinite number of universes. There is no "core" universe that is dispositive in determining timelines in the other universes of the multiverse -- that isn't what the multiverse is, per physics theory. Therefore, it's not possible per multiverse theory for Booker's death in that specific universe to preclude the entire thing happening again in a multiverse of infinite possibilities. It can't be precluded like that -- you can't preclude infinity.
I think that it "works" from a narrative perspective, but it plays a bit fast and loose with multiverse theory.



The way I see it, in the multiverse theory they are using, each choice spreads out an infinite number or parallel universes. So there actually can be a "core" universe. The point at which he made the choice between baptism or not is the ground zero universe and all other universe revolving around that choice spread out to the left or to the right, a flat plane of infinite universes. Every other choice in those branched universe creates another branch, but at the very core is still 1 universe in which the initial situation occurs.

At least that's how I view it in my head.
Anybody got any ideas for the DLCs? I mean, to me it would be unthinkable to get rid of the Booker/Elizabeth dynamic. The ending leaves open the possibility that Booker and Elizabeth have a happy ending and that all the Columbia realities have been destroyed. It seems fairly neatly tied up. Where to go from there?

I can tell you, I would pay through the NOSE to get a multiplayer co-op mode where you can play as Elizabeth and Booker. You could expand Elizabeth's rift making abilities and have her take control of that so it wouldn't be boring playing the Elizabeth part. My wife and I played the game simultaneously but we were really wishing we could play together.
A_D
+
Okay, from reading the one of the comments above (that there are 122 Bookers in total who tried to save Elizabeth), I just realized something... how did this 122nd Booker (the one we are playing as) succeeds in rescuing Elizabeth while the other 121 did not? It comes down to one word; Determinism (the idea that the world works in a predetermined cause and effect chain of events that lead to an inevitable outcome). This is proved by the coin flipping scene where Booker and all of his 121 predecessors that came before him only manage to flip up heads and not a single tails (marked by the tallies on the board <-also taken from the comments).

So if every single action that we played in the game has already been predetermined and no new outcome could ever be created, then how is the 122nd Booker any different from his predecessors you might ask? This is where I like to point out my theory that there is ONE special event that occurred to the 122nd Booker and not the other 121, which broke his chain of events, and thus differentiating him from his predecessors. This event is the warping of the 122nd Booker by the future Elizabeth. So basically what I’m saying is, all the events in the game up until the "warping" of the 122nd Booker on the bridge is exactly the same as the other 121 Bookers that came before him, but all the events that occur AFTER the "warping" of the 122nd Booker is a brand new chain of events that never before occurred to the other Bookers. To break it down…

There are in total:
122 Dimensions
122 Elizabeths
122 Comstocks
122 Bookers

What happens to the characters in the 121 "normal and un-warped" dimensions:
---All 121 "un-warped" Bookers: ???? <--- (unknown because we never played as one of these Bookers and therefore, cannot know what happens to him if he had not been "warped" by the future Elizabeth. Perhaps he fell down the bridge and died? Perhaps he gave up and went back home after not being able to find her? or perhaps the Songbird simply killed him; which is most likely as I recall Elizabeth's last few lines before she was captured saying something like "kill me before the Songbird ever gets to me because in every situation, you will never get past him". Whatever it is, what we DO know is that these Bookers DID NOT save Elizabeth in time from being tortured and brainwashed by Comstock and his men)
---All 121 Elizabeths: Due to Booker not being able to save them in time, all these Elizabeths lost hope in humanity and became old, powerful, war-mongering rulers who dream of cleansing the world of Sodom below. Luckily, one out of all these 121 old Elizabeths came up with a very good idea of "warping" our character (the 122nd Booker) back in time into the prison where the 122nd Elizabeth was kept. This special event changed the 122nd Booker's fate from (possibly) being mauled on the bridge by the Songbird to being able to save the 122nd Elizabeth from turning into just another evil old Elizabeth; setting up a new chain of cause and effect leading to the ending that we see in the game.
---All 121 Comstocks: After brainwashing and preparing Elizabeth to become the new ruler of Columbia, these Comstocks possibly just died of old age. He is NOT killed by Booker as Booker never showed up (and possibly killed) after the Songbird kidnapping event in all these 121 dimensions.

What happens to the characters in the 122nd "altered and warped" dimensions
---122nd Booker: Died. As shown in the end. This is to prevent the birth of Comstock and all of his wrongdoings past the baptism from ever happening. Note that the Booker in the scene after the credits is not the same Booker that we played as that would be impossible.
A_D
+
(continued) This 123rd Booker (as I like to call him) had nothing to do with Comstock or Columbia and simply lives his life as a normal father raising up her normal daughter in a normal life (although whether or not he possesses the memory of the events of the game is arguable).
---122nd Elizabeth: Disappeared into thin air. As Comstock never existed in the first place, everything that he affects in every dimensions that he exists simply disappears. This includes all the other 121 old Elizabeths as well. Depressing indeed... Although in the 123rd dimension she is still alive and well as Anna Dewitt, she is not Elizabeth as we know it, and never will be, as the chain of events that created Elizabeth's character never occurred... ever. Oh determinism, U SO SCARY!! :'@
---122nd Comstock: Died due to heavy head banging and excessive baptism by the 122nd Booker. Nuff said..

On an unrelated note, I would just like to point out the similarity of this mind-boggling plot with that of The Matrix:
1) Shitloads of Bookers from shitloads of dimensions each following exactly the same predetermined chain of cause & effect type of events ad infinitum = Shitloads of Neos from shitloads of dimensions each following exactly the same predetermined chain of cause & effect type of events ad infinitum.
2) Elizabeth "warping" Booker which plays a pivotal role in breaking the never-ending cycle of cause and effect= Agent Smith breaking loose from the Matrix system and turning into a virus; providing Neo a chance to negotiate a peace treaty with the Machines which also plays a pivotal role in breaking the never-ending cycle of cause and effect.

And yes, the reason why I'm writing this comment is also due to cause and effect. There is a note on my door saying "Write the comment, wipe away the dept"

*Edit* From the future Elizabeth’s Vox recording: "What I’ve done cannot be undone. I cannot stop what I have put in motion. But perhaps I can keep it from ever starting. He was my first hope… and now he is my last."
I don't think there CAN be a 'core universe.' I mean, from the game's perspective maybe. But I don't think infinite universes started when Booker accepted/rejected baptism. There are probably universes where Booker was never born cause somebody killed his Grandpa. They just chose to go through doors that had relevancy to them.
Question: There are a few times in the game where there is kind of a "fade to black" and you end up somewhere else with no explanation of how you got there. The ones I recall is the baptism at the beginning, and the one where you first encounter songbird and get knocked into the water and his eyes crack presumably from high water pressure.

What happened there? Did you get killed?

Also, every time you die and Elizabeth doesn't revive you, you wind up in the office and the door transports you back to Columbia. Kind of like a vita-chamber in the original Bioshock. Why there, and what is happening there? It appears you are willing yourself back into Columbia, you aren't being pulled there. Like you have some control over tears yourself.
String theory:
There are 11 dimensions.
11 x 11 = 121

Booker is 122 and he breaks the cycle.

Ryan615 said: I don't think there CAN be a 'core universe.' I mean, from the game's perspective maybe. But I don't think infinite universes started when Booker accepted/rejected baptism. There are probably universes where Booker was never born cause somebody killed his Grandpa. They just chose to go through doors that had relevancy to them.



What you (and many others, me included) didn't understand, has already been written here: The dimension in which Booker is drowned by Elizabeth and her doublegangers is the beginning of a branch. It's a constant in which the choice to be baptized or not is the variable, and from which the Columbia arch spawns. There may be dimensions in which Booker never went to this baptizm, therefor never had to make a choice and Columbia was never created nor did Booker have to give away his child.

As an argument for this theory, I'd like to quote male Lucetin. When rowing to the "final lighthouse" which doors lead to Bookers drowning, the following conversation emerges:

Booker: "What if I went back? Killed him [Comstock] before he did any of this?"

Lady Lutice: "Things get set in motion."

Gent Lutice: "How would one know how far back to go?"

To make this clear: Gent Lutice says himself that it IS possible; just that it is almost impossible to find out which variable in the sea of constants you'd have to change to get the ending you want.

Elizabeth, with her new power to see every world, every door, everything - she knew which constant was the important one, and which variable had to be changed - in this case, had to be added.

Now, what I still don't understand is the question how Booker "survived" his drowning in the after-credits scene. The Booker we played got drowned, and through his sacrifice, the branch leading to Columbia, Comstock, the whole jumping around the universes business - it was cut off. It never existed.

How is it possible, then, that this Booker we played - this Booker who remembered what happened, as he was shocked to wake up (after all he should be dead), and even more surprised to hear his daughter's scream - just popped up in his office the day he would've given Anna/Elizabeth away?

Still working on a theory for that. I read the postings, of course, that it doesn't matter; that he just is another Booker who remembers. But why should he remember if he didn't experienced it himself?

Coming to think of it, so did Chen, the weapon smith. It would mean that the memories from Columbia smashed with a Booker who never went there, but... got them "just now"?

Gotta think about it, but damn, I'd be happy for some help.
Everyone is forgetting a giant fact, Elizabeth has the power to 'Create' her own universes, Ask this, What stops her from creating one where Booker lives with Ann, But yet has all the memory's of what happened, and the other Booker drowns like he is meant to at the beginning of the re-berth branch. Or Mind-f**k time the Booker that drowns isn't our Booker but one she fabricates or pulls from another reality.

Ali_Dumi said: Everyone is forgetting a giant fact, Elizabeth has the power to 'Create' her own universes, Ask this, What stops her from creating one where Booker lives with Ann, But yet has all the memory's of what happened, and the other Booker drowns like he is meant to at the beginning of the re-berth branch. Or Mind-f**k time the Booker that drowns isn't our Booker but one she fabricates or pulls from another reality.



As far as I remember she always thought that she created "dreams" in which she escaped as a child; that she was able to create those rifts wherever and whenever she wanted. AFAIK she never said that she is able to create whole dimensions, especially not after the tower being destroyed and Elizabeth set free... She always talked about "doors" which lead to other worlds, other "oceans". Not creating them. ;)

Ant911 said: String theory:
There are 11 dimensions.
11 x 11 = 121
Booker is 122 and he breaks the cycle.



That is a VERY interesting connection... although I'm not sure the reason for the multiplication, it's interesting nonetheless. ^_^
One thing that bothers me the most is what was the purpose to drown Booker we played for?? How was that supposed to prevent Comstock from being "born"? I mean OUR Booker had already refused to be baptized once, right after the Wounded-Knee, he didn't go crazy after all these memories about giving Anna away and being transferred to another reality by the Luteces came back to him? Eventually he wasn't THAT kind of a Booker who could be reborn as a Comstock...Then why is he the one whose death will break the circle?
Knightblas hit the nail on the head. In the concept of multiverses I don't see how destroying one branch could possibly be effective. Think of it this way it will help: Starting at the birth of a life (although technically infinitely before that but for logical reasons lets just start there) every single second booker is alive, every nano-second even, a new universe is created due to the decisions of billions of people around the world that constantly were made or weren't made, happened, or didn't happen. Fast forward to Booker's baptism. This being treated as the core moment in time in which all the alternate universes where he becomes comstock are created, and all the alternate universes where he remains booker are created. This is where the story becomes unanswerable (insert magic not logic).

Firstly let me jump to why I just explained that first part. If elizabeth's intention by killing booker at the point he would become comstock was to wipe away all time lines where comstock could exist, that would be impossible by just killing one booker. What about the identical booker who tripped on a stone when he was 6? What about the booker that took a breath a half a milisecond before a booker in another universe? Do you really think that would make a difference in him becoming comstock in that universe? Probably not...but it still is a different universe. You can't delete a specific part of a branch in a person's life because there are an infinite amount of insignificant branches that support and lead to that branch. You can't destroy a person's life by killing them as a baby because there are an infinite amount of ways in which they could have been born. Therefore you can never just destroy one booker and solve all the issues. You CAN however kill one booker and solve all the branches that stem off that particular booker which would be effective in killing off that infinite time-line....good for you... but there are still infinitely many bookers that become comstocks. There's the booker the tripped on a stone when he was 6 but still became comstock, there's that booker that blinked cause he got dust in his eye and became comstock, etc.

and secondly the concept of killing booker makes no sense. This isn't even the correct booker being killed... We already know that two of the same person can exist in a world because comstock literally fought with dewitt for the baby in his world. We also know this isn't the booker of that moment in time because he has knowledge of the events taking place in that moment. Killing this booker would not only be futile but pointless.
hes the 123 booker btw everyone, the twins tally him on the board after he flips and its the 123rd time.

knightblas said: The problem is, though, that in a multiverse context, which is what the game is suggesting, there really are infinite possibilities due to there being an infinite number of universes. There is no "core" universe that is dispositive in determining timelines in the other universes of the multiverse -- that isn't what the multiverse is, per physics theory. Therefore, it's not possible per multiverse theory for Booker's death in that specific universe to preclude the entire thing happening again in a multiverse of infinite possibilities. It can't be precluded like that -- you can't preclude infinity.
I think that it "works" from a narrative perspective, but it plays a bit fast and loose with multiverse theory.



Oh, I agree; from a traditional multiverse theory it's a bit fast and loose, yes. But from a storytelling perspective, it's doable; you have to kind of smooth over some stuff in your brain to make it work, but yeah, it works.

Ali_Dumi said: Everyone is forgetting a giant fact, Elizabeth has the power to 'Create' her own universes, Ask this, What stops her from creating one where Booker lives with Ann, But yet has all the memory's of what happened, and the other Booker drowns like he is meant to at the beginning of the re-berth branch. Or Mind-f**k time the Booker that drowns isn't our Booker but one she fabricates or pulls from another reality.



This is a really, really, really interesting fact. Elizabeth is basically a god at the end of the game, and could potentially do all this; let Booker kill off Comstock and an entire ocean of universes, and pull him out and pop him into a new, idealised universe. Or have cordoned off a universe beforehand. We just don't know.

I dig that we're looking at it from a 'realistic' multiverse perspective, but those of you saying it doesn't make sense from that perspective (and I love you for that, I really do) need to either accept that, as much as it riles you, Ken Levine has very likely taken quite a few liberties and that's just something you're gonna have to deal with, or (b) shelve those issues you have with the feasibility of this until the DLC proves otherwise, which it may very well do.

:D


PaulV said:

knightblas said: The problem is, though, that in a multiverse context, which is what the game is suggesting, there really are infinite possibilities due to there being an infinite number of universes. There is no "core" universe that is dispositive in determining timelines in the other universes of the multiverse -- that isn't what the multiverse is, per physics theory. Therefore, it's not possible per multiverse theory for Booker's death in that specific universe to preclude the entire thing happening again in a multiverse of infinite possibilities. It can't be precluded like that -- you can't preclude infinity.
I think that it "works" from a narrative perspective, but it plays a bit fast and loose with multiverse theory.


Oh, I agree; from a traditional multiverse theory it's a bit fast and loose, yes. But from a storytelling perspective, it's doable; you have to kind of smooth over some stuff in your brain to make it work, but yeah, it works.


I honestly don't even see how it works from even a story-telling perspective. If you completely ignore how multiverse theory works....there is still the question of how does killing THIS booker whom wasn't involved at all a solution. At the very least the effective way to do it would be to go back and kill a version of booker that becomes comstock.

kydunse said:

PaulV said:

knightblas said: The problem is, though, that in a multiverse context, which is what the game is suggesting, there really are infinite possibilities due to there being an infinite number of universes. There is no "core" universe that is dispositive in determining timelines in the other universes of the multiverse -- that isn't what the multiverse is, per physics theory. Therefore, it's not possible per multiverse theory for Booker's death in that specific universe to preclude the entire thing happening again in a multiverse of infinite possibilities. It can't be precluded like that -- you can't preclude infinity.
I think that it "works" from a narrative perspective, but it plays a bit fast and loose with multiverse theory.


Oh, I agree; from a traditional multiverse theory it's a bit fast and loose, yes. But from a storytelling perspective, it's doable; you have to kind of smooth over some stuff in your brain to make it work, but yeah, it works.


I honestly don't even see how it works from even a story-telling perspective. If you completely ignore how multiverse theory works....there is still the question of how does killing THIS booker whom wasn't involved at all a solution. At the very least the effective way to do it would be to go back and kill a version of booker that becomes comstock.



Then I guess you're gonna have to wait and see whether the DLC makes the ending tenable for you.

Al_Fifino said: Now, what I still don't understand is the question how Booker "survived" his drowning in the after-credits scene. The Booker we played got drowned, and through his sacrifice, the branch leading to Columbia, Comstock, the whole jumping around the universes business - it was cut off. It never existed.

How is it possible, then, that this Booker we played - this Booker who remembered what happened, as he was shocked to wake up (after all he should be dead), and even more surprised to hear his daughter's scream - just popped up in his office the day he would've given Anna/Elizabeth away?



Well, as I see it..
1) "Our" Booker died, erasing any possibility of Comstock's existence and of him stealing his baby.
2) "New" Booker wakes up from a looong sold-my-baby-to-a-man-in-the-sky dream and realizes that it's all just a silly dream and that his baby girl is still sound asleep next door.

I'm not saying the whole game was just a giant, complex, dream sequence that never happened but maybe that is how our "new" Booker sees it, along with Mr. Chen, as some sort of vision or the like. It may explain the tone of shock in his voice when he woke up (you know, still being groggy and confused and all) but as to how "our" Booker's memories being transferred across the dimension as the "new" Booker's dream is beyond me... :P
The way I see it, what the game seems to be saying is that you just have to accept that when Booker/Comstock is born in the baptism scene after Litte Big Horn, THAT is the root of all multiverses. That's just what Ken has made an empirical fact in the game. Don't like it? Fine. But that's one of the constants in the game world. Now if you take that as a given - which the game states and reiterates in a myriad of ways that, well, you sort of have to - then everything else falls into place. If, however, you take umbrage with it (which I did for a few hours after the game ended, I confess) you're just gonna make yourself profoundly unhappy.

It's like watching a 'realistic' space drama, complete with incredibly intricate looks at how disease affects people, how confined spaces work on the psyche, how the ship needs oxygen but doesn't have any, etc. It has all these amazing things that are so so easy to buy into, except for one thing: it has faster than light travel. Now you COULD sit there and pummel the feasibility of FTL, stating over and over that without FTL the ship wouldn't even exist, OR you could accept that the showrunners took a liberty, a pretty big one, to make everything AROUND said liberty function, and just enjoy it.

That is pretty much my response to people having trouble with this.

Ali_Dumi said: Everyone is forgetting a giant fact, Elizabeth has the power to 'Create' her own universes, Ask this, What stops her from creating one where Booker lives with Ann, But yet has all the memory's of what happened, and the other Booker drowns like he is meant to at the beginning of the re-berth branch. Or Mind-f**k time the Booker that drowns isn't our Booker but one she fabricates or pulls from another reality.



Does it really say at any point she can fabricate reality? Ya know it's funny because you tend to wonder what's the difference? From what I understand she can't create reality at all...but the funny thing is....she can create tears from any infinite amount of universes....with infinite choices, there is no difference between being able to create reality or just choosing the one you need that already exists because with infinite universes its guaranteed whatever you need does exist haha. Man damn this game.

I think one of the reasons this game's ending irks me so much is because it was so poetic and beautiful....but if it doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense. I hate the trend in society where people hang up a painting of a blue circle on a wall and claim its deep art. At some point a tiny bit of logic needs to intercede. This was one of the best games I've ever played....but I can't help but have a sneaky feeling if you directly asked the developer what he INTENDED the ending to mean....he would have no idea himself. THAT is what annoys me. You know the writers for this game saw holes in their own plot and thought well...people will assume what they assume. You can't just throw multiverses and time travel into a game or movie so that when anyone asks you so what really happened you can just answer back with What do YOU think happened? That's a cop out.

kydunse said:

Ali_Dumi said: Everyone is forgetting a giant fact, Elizabeth has the power to 'Create' her own universes, Ask this, What stops her from creating one where Booker lives with Ann, But yet has all the memory's of what happened, and the other Booker drowns like he is meant to at the beginning of the re-berth branch. Or Mind-f**k time the Booker that drowns isn't our Booker but one she fabricates or pulls from another reality.


Does it really say at any point she can fabricate reality? Ya know it's funny because you tend to wonder what's the difference? From what I understand she can't create reality at all...but the funny thing is....she can create tears from any infinite amount of universes....with infinite choices, there is no difference between being able to create reality or just choosing the one you need that already exists because with infinite universes its guaranteed whatever you need does exist haha. Man damn this game.
I think one of the reasons this game's ending irks me so much is because it was so poetic and beautiful....but if it doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense. I hate the trend in society where people hang up a painting of a blue circle on a wall and claim its deep art. At some point a tiny bit of logic needs to intercede. This was one of the best games I've ever played....but I can't help but have a sneaky feeling if you directly asked the developer what he INTENDED the ending to mean....he would have no idea himself. THAT is what annoys me. You know the writers for this game saw holes in their own plot and thought well...people will assume what they assume. You can't just throw multiverses and time travel into a game or movie so that when anyone asks you so what really happened you can just answer back with What do YOU think happened? That's a cop out.



No good art, be it painting, cinema, music or gaming, is created without intent. No GOOD art. My background is academic, and I've analysed more narratives, more shots and more codas in film than I can recall, and a good artist knows what they're doing. Always. Even if they say they don't. And I get that you're irked, but trust me: I know how you feel. You just have to accept it. Some things are vague, and that's ok. You don't HAVE to spell everything out, and it's a dangerous, frankly stupid tendency many works of narrative have lately to wrap EVERYTHING up. Ambiguity is a tool, and Levine uses it beautifully here.

As for him not even knowing himself, I've actually pulled some strings and asked him, and am waiting for a response. I'll add it to the original piece up top when I get it.
so far i've read your article and every and i mean every comment so far and my understanding of this game is gaining. i also am playing thru it even more carefully and making videos along the way pointing stuff out so hopefully at the end i can bring something to all of you. so far i leaned the twins are everywhere and no where and what i mean is they are always easter egging around and in the beginning light house has more to meet the eye. like the map and comstocks note on it. plus why is that guy dead? i think a dewitt before him was already there.
One thing I've noticed throughout the chat is that no one has stated that as Booker travels through the various universes he takes the place of that universe's Booker. That's why he himself is drowned when they travel to where Comstock was born. Then with Comstock dead he returns to his own reality. With Booker giving the chance to give up Anna

If someone did comment about this sorry for stealing your thunder.
Sorry i meant "never giving the chance to give up Anna"
Also the more I read the more I think how pointless my comment was sorry about that

Carved said: One thing I've noticed throughout the chat is that no one has stated that as Booker travels through the various universes he takes the place of that universe's Booker. That's why he himself is drowned when they travel to where Comstock was born. Then with Comstock dead he returns to his own reality. With Booker giving the chance to give up Anna
If someone did comment about this sorry for stealing your thunder.



YES. It's also why we don't see the body of Martyr Booker in the tower, in the room where his final message is left.
Does anybody see any significance in the Vox recording where Comstock says "perhaps at the moment of baptism the man is both the sinner and the saint". To me it seems like the moment at which Booker dies is supposed to be his Shroedinger moment, when he is both and neither of the side of the coin.

@PaulV: I'm afraid the ending is still muddy to me no matter what approach you take to multiverse theory. I don't understand the significance of Booker dying, he already made his choice in a previous universe to decline the baptism. He is wholly Booker and nothing of Comstock. How does this stop him? Also he was baptised when he first entered Columbia, does this hold any significance? Is he now Booker AND Comstock because he was both baptised and not baptised? Also do the Elizabeths at the end have missing little fingers too? To me they didn't look deformed, are there universes where Elizabeth does not have her powers? Is that the factor that changed? The Elizabeth on the right when they drown him doesn't seem to be missing a finger.
.

Edit: Whoops sry.. clicked the wrong button :P

PaulV said:

Carved said: One thing I've noticed throughout the chat is that no one has stated that as Booker travels through the various universes he takes the place of that universe's Booker. That's why he himself is drowned when they travel to where Comstock was born. Then with Comstock dead he returns to his own reality. With Booker giving the chance to give up Anna
If someone did comment about this sorry for stealing your thunder.


YES. It's also why we don't see the body of Martyr Booker in the tower, in the room where his final message is left.



I don't understand....if that's the case then why is comstock able to be in booker's universe to steal his baby. He doesn't replace himself there.

Al_Fifino said:

Ali_Dumi said: Everyone is forgetting a giant fact, Elizabeth has the power to 'Create' her own universes, Ask this, What stops her from creating one where Booker lives with Ann, But yet has all the memory's of what happened, and the other Booker drowns like he is meant to at the beginning of the re-berth branch. Or Mind-f**k time the Booker that drowns isn't our Booker but one she fabricates or pulls from another reality.


As far as I remember she always thought that she created "dreams" in which she escaped as a child; that she was able to create those rifts wherever and whenever she wanted. AFAIK she never said that she is able to create whole dimensions, especially not after the tower being destroyed and Elizabeth set free... She always talked about "doors" which lead to other worlds, other "oceans". Not creating them.



The scene with her mother she said she must of brought her from a reality she created where she poured all her hatred into her, For abandoning her.

Starlite said: One thing that bothers me the most is what was the purpose to drown Booker we played for?? How was that supposed to prevent Comstock from being "born"? I mean OUR Booker had already refused to be baptized once, right after the Wounded-Knee, he didn't go crazy after all these memories about giving Anna away and being transferred to another reality by the Luteces came back to him? Eventually he wasn't THAT kind of a Booker who could be reborn as a Comstock...Then why is he the one whose death will break the circle?



Elizabeth said all the paths lead back to one point, She was able to bring him back to the very day, and by sacrificing himself he ended it all. Remember time Never flows in the on direction like a stream, Time moves in all directions.

kydunse said:

PaulV said:

Carved said: One thing I've noticed throughout the chat is that no one has stated that as Booker travels through the various universes he takes the place of that universe's Booker. That's why he himself is drowned when they travel to where Comstock was born. Then with Comstock dead he returns to his own reality. With Booker giving the chance to give up Anna
If someone did comment about this sorry for stealing your thunder.


YES. It's also why we don't see the body of Martyr Booker in the tower, in the room where his final message is left.


I don't understand....if that's the case then why is comstock able to be in booker's universe to steal his baby. He doesn't replace himself there.


probably cause he is not the same person after the baptism so the universe dosn't mix them lol. idk good poke though.

Ali_Dumi said: Elizabeth said all the paths lead back to one point, She was able to bring him back to the very day, and by sacrificing himself he ended it all. Remember time Never flows in the on direction like a stream, Time moves in all directions.



A_D said:

Al_Fifino said: Now, what I still don't understand is the question how Booker "survived" his drowning in the after-credits scene. The Booker we played got drowned, and through his sacrifice, the branch leading to Columbia, Comstock, the whole jumping around the universes business - it was cut off. It never existed.
How is it possible, then, that this Booker we played - this Booker who remembered what happened, as he was shocked to wake up (after all he should be dead), and even more surprised to hear his daughter's scream - just popped up in his office the day he would've given Anna/Elizabeth away?


Well, as I see it..
1) "Our" Booker died, erasing any possibility of Comstock's existence and of him stealing his baby.
2) "New" Booker wakes up from a looong sold-my-baby-to-a-man-in-the-sky dream and realizes that it's all just a silly dream and that his baby girl is still sound asleep next door.
I'm not saying the whole game was just a giant, complex, dream sequence that never happened but maybe that is how our "new" Booker sees it, along with Mr. Chen, as some sort of vision or the like. It may explain the tone of shock in his voice when he woke up (you know, still being groggy and confused and all) but as to how "our" Booker's memories being transferred across the dimension as the "new" Booker's dream is beyond me...



I thought of this, Just didn't want to be the one to say it, What if Booker hit his head, and dreamed it all XD Would be so funny, I can see all the people rage if this became fact. :P

MrCatBus said:

Ali_Dumi said: Elizabeth said all the paths lead back to one point, She was able to bring him back to the very day, and by sacrificing himself he ended it all. Remember time Never flows in the on direction like a stream, Time moves in all directions.



LMAO, But it is true, Time isn't on rails :P

Edit: Its like The Elder Scrolls say, Looking left you see the Past, Look right you see the Future, But what if you look up or down?
It's not so much the ocean-like description of time that Starlight was questioning, it was how the death of our Booker (who had already made and lived the decision not to be baptised therefore couldn't possibly ever manifest as Comstock) got rid of Comstock and everything Columbia related.

Surely to martyr him in that way they would have had to go back to the original dividing moment and kill that guy. That's the birth of Comstock and the meaning of the whole smother him in the crib business. He is drowned at his place of birth. But our Booker has already been born, as Booker... not Comstock.

MrCatBus said: It's not so much the ocean-like description of time that Starlight was questioning, it was how the death of our Booker (who had already made and lived the decision not to be baptised therefore couldn't possibly ever manifest as Comstock) got rid of Comstock and everything Columbia related.
Surely to martyr him in that way they would have had to go back to the original dividing moment and kill that guy. That's the birth of Comstock and the meaning of the whole smother him in the crib business. He is drowned at his place of birth. But our Booker has already been born, as Booker... not Comstock.



It allowed our Booker to replace Booker of that time, Almost like a replaying of a level, Booker is Booker no matter what Universe he comes from so all you really need is a Booker at that point in time willing to do it. Cause time isn't fixed this is possible. Thus cutting the branch off the tree where all these paths merge into the decision of Baptized or Not.
^ Agree with you about this, pretty much. Also, I think perhaps this may have been the only Booker who not only got this far, but also was willing to sacrifice himself for Elizabeth/Anna, and all the people he had to kill in order to get there. Remember how Elizabeth kept asking you if there was any way to find redemption for all Booker and her had done?

Ali_Dumi said:

MrCatBus said: It's not so much the ocean-like description of time that Starlight was questioning, it was how the death of our Booker (who had already made and lived the decision not to be baptised therefore couldn't possibly ever manifest as Comstock) got rid of Comstock and everything Columbia related.
Surely to martyr him in that way they would have had to go back to the original dividing moment and kill that guy. That's the birth of Comstock and the meaning of the whole smother him in the crib business. He is drowned at his place of birth. But our Booker has already been born, as Booker... not Comstock.


It allowed our Booker to replace Booker of that time, Almost like a replaying a level, Booker is Booker no matter what Universe he comes from so all you really need is a Booker at that point in time willing to do it. Cause time isn't fixed this is possible. Thus cutting the branch off the tree where all these paths merge into the decision of Baptized or Not.



Then why did he not make this decision one of the 121 times it supposedly happened? What was the defining factor for success this time? We're lead to believe this is Booker's last chance to do this. What's the significance of this character and this number if it could've been any of them?

Also I never heard it explicitly stated in the game that one version of Booker replaced another, maybe I missed that and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. On the other hand the game does seem to imply that our Booker is a separate entity, after all he can enter a universe where he died so his existence and identity must be independent of that of the original universe's Booker. I suppose you could explain that away by saying that if there isn't a Booker in existence there currently it's fine but I haven't heard that in the game anywhere either.

Based on what the game gives us it's all a little confusing. The ending also makes it bizarre because it SEEMS to be our Booker that is alive and calling out for Anna. The tone of his voice and the worry imply that he remembers what happened but how did this dead Booker's memories end up in this one without the crossing of universes? The game shows us that's how it works.

Also, won't there be another alternate universe created where Booker chooses not to be killed? Maybe that's the entire point, the cycle hasn't been broken at all.

MrCatBus said:

Ali_Dumi said:

MrCatBus said: It's not so much the ocean-like description of time that Starlight was questioning, it was how the death of our Booker (who had already made and lived the decision not to be baptised therefore couldn't possibly ever manifest as Comstock) got rid of Comstock and everything Columbia related.
Surely to martyr him in that way they would have had to go back to the original dividing moment and kill that guy. That's the birth of Comstock and the meaning of the whole smother him in the crib business. He is drowned at his place of birth. But our Booker has already been born, as Booker... not Comstock.


It allowed our Booker to replace Booker of that time, Almost like a replaying a level, Booker is Booker no matter what Universe he comes from so all you really need is a Booker at that point in time willing to do it. Cause time isn't fixed this is possible. Thus cutting the branch off the tree where all these paths merge into the decision of Baptized or Not.


Then why did he not make this decision one of the 121 times it supposedly happened? What was the defining factor for success this time? We're lead to believe this is Booker's last chance to do this. What's the significance of this character and this number if it could've been any of them?
Also I never heard it explicitly stated in the game that one version of Booker replaced another, maybe I missed that and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. On the other hand the game does seem to imply that our Booker is a separate entity, after all he can enter a universe where he died so his existence and identity must be independent of that of the original universe's Booker. I suppose you could explain that away by saying that if there isn't a Booker in existence there currently it's fine but I haven't heard that in the game anywhere either.
Based on what the game gives us it's all a little confusing. The ending also makes it bizarre because it SEEMS to be our Booker that is alive and calling out for Anna. The tone of his voice and the worry imply that he remembers what happened but how did this dead Booker's memories end up in this one without the crossing of universes? The game shows us that's how it works.
Also, won't there be another alternate universe created where Booker chooses not to be killed? Maybe that's the entire point, the cycle hasn't been broken at all.



I feel that it's supposed to inferred from the nosebleeds and the blending of memories between our Booker and matyr Booker that suggest our Booker taking the place of the other Booker or Comstock in that universe

As for an alternate universe where he chooses not to be killed. We have to look at this the same way we do the coin flips. That Booker will always make that decision because he is fundamentally always Booker. So he will always choose to be drowned. Just as head will always pick heads.
" he will always choose to be drowned. Just as he will always pick heads."
Sorry about the bad grammar
I feel a lot of the story requires a inference based on our experiences throughout the game leaving a lot of room for interpretation and that requires us to to take as straightforward an approach as possible and a good long lesson on string theory.

MrCatBus said: Then why did he not make this decision one of the 121 times it supposedly happened? What was the defining factor for success this time? We're lead to believe this is Booker's last chance to do this. What's the significance of this character and this number if it could've been any of them?



Well if u scroll a bit up, I did try to point out why this 122nd Booker is unique from his other 121 predecessors. But take my word with a pinch of salt though as it is only a theory. I guess we'll have the final say when Irrational releases their new DLC...
That quote chain is getting a little long so I'll just reply :-) it was explained in the game that the choices he makes are variables. It has to be that way for him to only make it after 122 goes. We also see multiple Bookers running from lighthouse to lighthouse with multiple Elizabeths. That means that there must be multiple possible paths for them to take after making it out of Columbia and restoring her powers. We see them (other thems) taking those paths.

The nosebleeds are a result of him being forced to assimilate multiple memories as one person. This is explained too, it doesn't say that he's becoming those Bookers, just that he has to cope with multiple memories.
I am playing it right now and came across something. But it is CONFIRMED that Rosalind Lutece and Robert Lutece are, in fact, brother and sister. They are not the same person or a boy in the tear and a girl in the other tear, no. Brother and sister.

Source: When playing the game, at the part where Rosalind Lutece and Robert Lutece are playing the piano after you crash the airship, they are trying to play the CAGE song (or notes rather) Right when the brother hands you the paper, just stand still and after a few seconds the sister will ask, (Something along the lines of) "Would you like to hear another song brother? Perhaps a waltz?"

Just thought I should throw that out there.
Oh well what do I know only done one play through so far I'll probably change my opinion as time rolls on. Then we'll also probably get better explanations as dlc rolls out. But I still believe the only way to explain the ending is Booker taking the place of another Booker. Otherwise why would the players Booker be drowned. Well time for play through # 2

MrCatBus said: That quote chain is getting a little long so I'll just reply :-) it was explained in the game that the choices he makes are variables. It has to be that way for him to only make it after 122 goes. We also see multiple Bookers running from lighthouse to lighthouse with multiple Elizabeths. That means that there must be multiple possible paths for them to take after making it out of Columbia and restoring her powers. We see them (other thems) taking those paths.
The nosebleeds are a result of him being forced to assimilate multiple memories as one person. This is explained too, it doesn't say that he's becoming those Bookers, just that he has to cope with multiple memories.



See what your saying about the multiple Bookers after returning Elizabeth's powers. But Elizabeth does say that "We all swim in different oceans but end up on the same shore" Which (at least to me) suggest they are all heading toward the baptism. Where Booker will always make the same choice (to let himself be drowned) because he's always Booker. Just as he always picked heads in the coin flip

As for the Booker taking over another Booker theory I'm sticking to my guns. I don't know why but I get the feeling that it completes the story in a more accurate way.

Evan900 said: I am playing it right now and came across something. But it is CONFIRMED that Rosalind Lutece and Robert Lutece are, in fact, brother and sister. They are not the same person or a boy in the tear and a girl in the other tear, no. Brother and sister.
Source: When playing the game, at the part where Rosalind Lutece and Robert Lutece are playing the piano after you crash the airship, they are trying to play the CAGE song (or notes rather) Right when the brother hands you the paper, just stand still and after a few seconds the sister will ask, (Something along the lines of) "Would you like to hear another song brother? Perhaps a waltz?"
Just thought I should throw that out there.



Wrong. She refers to him as 'brother', but they are the same person.
I've been seriously thinking on my Booker taking over Booker theory and I do think that from an artistic standpoint it makes sense. When you look at the game itself the players themselves represents Booker's consciousness which is constant across the universes he travels through. I believe that the developers thought that even the the Bookers are all the same the consciousness is what matters. If you make a clone of yourself before You die to live on you yourself would die. Your consciousness would be gone forever. You would not still be around a whole new consciousness will be formed for that clone yours will not transfer to the clone.Though this doesn't necessarily suggest one Booker takes over another. I thinks it means since you always stay with the same Booker throughout the game it's the only reason you could state that he himself remains constant that a whole new consciousness doesn't just come out of nowhere to continue the story it would be like another player continuing your game it would be the same body but not the same mind. Maybe it's not his body that transcends the universes but his consciousness travels throughout them constantly shifting everytime you die therefor explaining the doorway everytime you die. Just a thought
My brains is starting to hurt I'll check back on this tomorrow I really want to hear everyone's ideas
Woah, ok weird. Somehow my computer saved my post before I made an account here. I pressed enter to skip down faster and I guess the piece of crap posted my old type? haha

Yeah, I know its wrong, I already read all the stuff about them. My apologies for the derp moment.
probably been noted up in the comments somewhere but the Lutec twins are the same person from different universes right?
there is the voxophone recording where the female lutec talks about sending messages to her brother and another where she notes they are separated by a mere chromosome. also the kinetiscope recording announcing her brother's arrival in columbia.

DPhoenix said: probably been noted up in the comments somewhere but the Lutec twins are the same person from different universes right?
there is the voxophone recording where the female lutec talks about sending messages to her brother and another where she notes they are separated by a mere chromosome. also the kinetiscope recording announcing her brother's arrival in columbia.



Yep, you would be correct my good sir. Most of Rosalind's Vox recordings kind of "hinted" at this fact. I'd also like to add a few other stuffs along with this..

If Rosalind and Robert are siblings they must exist (along with their parents) in the same dimension to begin with. This is not the case though, as we can see in one of the scenes during the ending where Rosalind tries to convince Robert to jump into the tear and join her in the "Columbia dimension" (along with Comstock and baby Anna), Robert clearly shows a very deep concern, saying something along the lines of "U MAD BRAH?" :E

Also, the idea of them being siblings might just be Robert's "new memory" that is created when a person jumps from one dimension to another. Just as Booker creates his "need-to-settle-gambling-dept-with-guy-in-New York" memory in the scene where the couple dragged him into the boat. Also during this scene, when Rosalind points out that "the brain adapts", Robert then replied; "I should know, I lived it" (confirming the fact that he definitely doesn't originate from the same dimension as Rosalind does and suffers the same memory-altering effect just like Booker).
okay what if.. all that happened was created by Elizabeth just because she had too much time being trapped in the tower and spending too much time with books made her imagination run wild. She then created Dewitt and all the stories. I can't remember but she did say something like "try having all the time surrounded by books and see what it can do to you" when asked about how she got the picklocking skills or something.

Okay I am just joking. I am fairly confused with all that happened but this post and all the comments really got me to understand the ending. Thanks for curing my migraine! :D
In the after credits, I don't hear Anna cry at all. I've turned the volume up and tried to listen intently but I don't hear a single cry. I think DeWitt hears something so he thinks its coming from Anna and we don't actually sees if she is in the crib. Just the way DeWitt sounds when he says "Anna is that you?" makes me feel its not the DeWitt we were playing as but a DeWitt from another universe where maybe he wakes up from a nap, walks in to see if its Anna only to remember he sold her off, and tries to get her back. That's my assumption.

So from what I gather. If Booker is baptized he becomes Comstock which is a given. But if Booker refuses, then he becomes the rescuer. Then there is no way to stop the cycle and have the universe where Booker lives a normal life with his baby daughter. Then it is highly likely there is a multiverse. No way for Comstock to steal his daughter if there isn't another universe. Because Comstock is sterile he can't go back in time to kidnap his daughter thus Comstock had to go to another universe.

But if the idea that Booker going to another universe replaces that Booker, then the cycle is broken when he drowned at the baptism. But if alternate universe Booker going to the root Universe is irrelevant, then the cycle can never be broken.
A lot of people seem to be stuck on an infinite mulitverses issue, in that preventing one Comstock wouldn't do any good for an infinite number of other universes with other Comstocks. I think that's baloney. :)

We know that for the purposes of the game, random events don't cause reality to branch. That's why the coin tosses are always the same. They're not choices. Only choices cause reality to split to allow the multiple possible outcomes to exist. (This express concern with choice is probably also a commentary on the nature of gaming and the narrative itself, note that there is only one outcome unlike others in the series, and it's peppered with somewhat pointless, if uncomfortable, choices.) It is never suggested in the story that 'all possible' universes must exist, only that each choice leads to new ones.

They also explicitly discuss the existence of constants and variables. (An obvious reference to game programming, so blatant I'm sure it makes developers cringe.) Namely that, for the purposes of the BioShock multiverse, some things do NOT change, the constants... which include a lighthouse, a man, and a city at the very least. I bet it also includes lightweight puzzle solving and shooting at stuff, because oh man there they are, at it again, with ANOTHER commentary on gaming franchises. It wouldn't be a BioShock game without these elements. It must contain them to be a 'faithful' sequel. The man = FPS, the city = the game's awesome levels as an important character, the lighthouse = franchise constancy/branding. Are you sensing a theme here? I think BioShock is as much about games as it is race or religion!

But getting back to multiverses...

Not all infinite sets are the same size. Some are larger than others (which is really weird, but whatever). Knowing this, and given that both of the things I've just described above are restricting in nature, it's clear that in the ontological sense the rules of the BioShock universe allow for a radically smaller number of infinite universes containing a Comstock than the infinite universes without one. We've just minimized the lower limit of the total possible impact of Comstocks on the multiverse to negligible amounts. A tiny infinity that's vanishingly small in comparison to the full multiverse. But we can do better than this.

In an infinite number of universes operating under these rules, there could really be only one cause of Comstocks. There is no requirement that all possible routes to Comstock exsist, only that when the choice that brought Comstock into existence is made, the universe split into Comstock and non-Comstock, and proceeded to branch from there. The infinite, used in this sense, refers to *possible* universes, not *actualized* universes. There are still an infinite number ahead, but a much smaller infinite than it could be, and there are also an infinite number of universes that *don't* exist because choices were *not* made (that's why the coin always comes up the same, there are no universes where it doesn't) and/or they don't contain the constants.

Great. But we can do even better!

I've made a case that this game is a commentary on gaming itself. It's a game that doesn't give you many choices. It's not a sandbox. It even offers you explicit, labeled choices that don't have a real result on the narrative, as if to reenforce this. It's drawing attention to them pretty hard if you ask me, since my first reaction upon being tasked to pick a necklace was to look up what effect that had because it was so darn ambiguous. It was a rare Game Element interrupting an otherwise fluid story, as all of them are.

...
Continued...

How many choices like this are in the game? I forget. I can count them on two hands at most. Could it be that *these* are the choices that branch the BioShock universe? You know... just like in a GAME? Sorry about all the negatives, but... not only are an infinite number of possible non-universes allowed by restricted branching and missing constants... because the meta-wall is pretty much atomized at this point, it's quite possible the authors intended the branching to be further restricted to KEY choices, those call-attention-to-themselves-gameplay-choices... *not* the illusion of choice you have about which bad guy to kill first before you have to kill *all* the bad guys to proceed. You know, just like handing over a baby. Or waiting until you flip a coin. They are pretty much hammering this stuff into us, IMO. They're pointing out that your choice to kill the baddies is really no choice at all... there is no universe were you haven't cleared every level to win. Clearing levels is a constant. The limited true choices in BioShock would produce a paltry collection of universes indeed.

So! I hope I've showed how Comstocks could be a tiny probelm overall, or could even have been wiped out from a single point of origin. None of this theorizing *confirms* the threat is over, but it's allowed for, at least. Nor does this suggest whether there's one primary universe which all descend from, or an infinite chain, either are allowable in this system, I think.

Ouch my head.
And and for anyone hoping for a (playable) female protagonist, precedent has been set that 'the man' could very well be a woman, in another universe. :)
While I do see that Booker taking over the other Booker's role in a universe is the only way to really make his death stop Comstock I don't see how that is ever pointed to in game. It seems like a stretch to me. Especially given that it's choices that create the branches and Booker chose to die. According to everything the game explained about it's own logical consistency that decision should create another Booker who chose not to die. If the game abandons that for the ending then it's not a good ending in my eyes. But given how clever the rest of the game is I don't believe that it would resort to a cop out at the last moment.

Also Booker technically isn't even the same man as the Booker pre-baptism, he and Comstock can be in the same universe because they are different sides of a coin. The Booker we play is Booker Dewitt, the opposite of Comstock. The Booker that needs to die is Booker Dewitt who is as yet both and neither. Would he even take his place?

There are also a lot of questions that need to be addressed in the ending that are being skipped over thanks to this Booker becomes Booker idea. Why does our Elizabeth not follow us to the drowning scene? The one in the middle is not wearing the necklace and Booker is confused and asks who she is. She wears it through the entire ending up until that point. Also are the other Elizabeths missing fingers? To me they don't seem to be, especially the one on the right that grabs his arm. Is this Elizabeth different to the ones you tried to save before in some way? Also I think her not following you through basically means she was outside the universes when they were erased and so now exists as the Lutece twins do, setting us up for DLC.

MrCatBus said:
There are also a lot of questions that need to be addressed in the ending that are being skipped over thanks to this Booker becomes Booker idea. Why does our Elizabeth not follow us to the drowning scene? The one in the middle is not wearing the necklace and Booker is confused and asks who she is. She wears it through the entire ending up until that point. Also are the other Elizabeths missing fingers? To me they don't seem to be, especially the one on the right that grabs his arm. Is this Elizabeth different to the ones you tried to save before in some way? Also I think her not following you through basically means she was outside the universes when they were erased and so now exists as the Lutece twins do, setting us up for DLC.



Interesting... Could that mean that the Lutece twins are free and Elizabeth perhaps takes their place as being trapped between universes? Is there any evidence of Lady Lutece's theory of them freeing themselves if the circle is broken? (It's only logical that the Twins are doing this to help themselves as well as Booker). This could explain why we don't see Elizabeth disappear on the final piano key.

OR the fact that she isn't wearing the neckband could point to the fact that because Comstock doesn't exist anymore (therefore Columbia was never built) means that Booker never chose which Pendant to give Elizabeth and Elizabeth never received one, which could also point to the fact that the Lutece's are free - they were never there to present her with it.

--------------------

What I'm really stuck on though is how Comstock doesn't exist. If there are truly infinite possibilities, it should be (as far as I know) possible that Comstock can still come to pass. He can still exist if Booker is still alive, right? Booker has still gone through Wounded Knee, he's still in debt (seen in the after-credits, the wallpaper is still torn). So, there's still the possibility that he goes to the baptism. Perhaps I don't understand the theory fully... Does him dying there in one dimension make it a constant? That if he goes to the same place on the same day he will always drown?

I think I need to read up on how all of the theories work... Does anyone know which real theories I should look into? (String Theory, etc)
I don't think the missing necklace symbolises that, if simply going through that tear caused the events in Columbia to never happen then Elizabeth herself would never have manifested there. I may be wrong though!

Also, I'm not saying that the Lutece's have freed themselves, I'm not sure that's even possible. They seem to be independent, god-like entities. They can move Booker between dimensions at will, they exist in the space between particles (or whatever that quote was) I'm just suggesting that perhaps Elizabeth (our Elizabeth since she seems to have remained in the place with all the gates) is now apart from any one universe just as the Lutece's are.

MrCatBus said: I don't think the missing necklace symbolises that, if simply going through that tear caused the events in Columbia to never happen then Elizabeth herself would never have manifested there. I may be wrong though!
Also, I'm not saying that the Lutece's have freed themselves, I'm not sure that's even possible. They seem to be independent, god-like entities. They can move Booker between dimensions at will, they exist in the space between particles (or whatever that quote was) I'm just suggesting that perhaps Elizabeth (our Elizabeth since she seems to have remained in the place with all the gates) is now apart from any one universe just as the Lutece's are.



I know you're not suggesting it. I'm simply trying to piece everything together. Hell, I could be creating possibilities where none exist.
first of all....thumbs up for everyone here...its awesome to read so much about it....finished it 2 hours ago and cant sop thinking about it....
got a question.
do you guys know whos that in the beginning in the lighthouse..dead on the chair???
1 week break and than straight away again.....what a story....gaming is the future and storys like that are just insane...f*** Hollywood.!!! ^_^

Daniel258 said: first of all....thumbs up for everyone here...its awesome to read so much about it....finished it 2 hours ago and cant sop thinking about it....
got a question.
do you guys know whos that in the beginning in the lighthouse..dead on the chair???
1 week break and than straight away again.....what a story....gaming is the future and storys like that are just insane...f*** Hollywood.!!!



That's a good question and something that puzzled me a lot. The Lutece's do say that his mind creates new memories to deal with that world but that's not a memory. Plus there are bloody handprints and drag marks on the floor, suggesting the man wasn't just executed in his chair. Someone put him there. Plus there's all the scripture and prophecy scattered around the lighthouse.
no idea @MrCatBus
hes got a sign standing on him where it says..''dont disappoint us'' ;O
It would seem that Lady Comstock's first name begins with 'A' according to the First Lady posters ("See the very dress worn by A. Comstock herself". This probably isn't a surprise, but just something interesting I found while playing through a second time. But we know that Anna was born after the baptism, so it's probable that she was named after her mother, who died when giving birth. So if Booker went through with the baptism, became Comstock, and couldn't have a baby due to being in-fertile, his wife (presumably Anna DeWitt, now Anna Comstock) was still alive. And remember, the door of Comstock's House recognised her as Lady Comstock even though she would have no resemblance, unless the dress was really that much of a factor - call me daft, but I'd say that's poor security!

As I said, just something interesting!

MrCatBus said:

Ali_Dumi said:

MrCatBus said: It's not so much the ocean-like description of time that Starlight was questioning, it was how the death of our Booker (who had already made and lived the decision not to be baptised therefore couldn't possibly ever manifest as Comstock) got rid of Comstock and everything Columbia related.
Surely to martyr him in that way they would have had to go back to the original dividing moment and kill that guy. That's the birth of Comstock and the meaning of the whole smother him in the crib business. He is drowned at his place of birth. But our Booker has already been born, as Booker... not Comstock.


It allowed our Booker to replace Booker of that time, Almost like a replaying a level, Booker is Booker no matter what Universe he comes from so all you really need is a Booker at that point in time willing to do it. Cause time isn't fixed this is possible. Thus cutting the branch off the tree where all these paths merge into the decision of Baptized or Not.


Then why did he not make this decision one of the 121 times it supposedly happened? What was the defining factor for success this time? We're lead to believe this is Booker's last chance to do this. What's the significance of this character and this number if it could've been any of them?
Also I never heard it explicitly stated in the game that one version of Booker replaced another, maybe I missed that and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. On the other hand the game does seem to imply that our Booker is a separate entity, after all he can enter a universe where he died so his existence and identity must be independent of that of the original universe's Booker. I suppose you could explain that away by saying that if there isn't a Booker in existence there currently it's fine but I haven't heard that in the game anywhere either.
Based on what the game gives us it's all a little confusing. The ending also makes it bizarre because it SEEMS to be our Booker that is alive and calling out for Anna. The tone of his voice and the worry imply that he remembers what happened but how did this dead Booker's memories end up in this one without the crossing of universes? The game shows us that's how it works.
Also, won't there be another alternate universe created where Booker chooses not to be killed? Maybe that's the entire point, the cycle hasn't been broken at all.



Some good points, I don't mean replace, Has in he is that Booker but he is a Booker from that time line that had the choice this is key has I believe only the person that had this choice in the first place can affect his past, So a Booker that never attended the Baptized can't effect this point in time and space.

What I also believe is that this Booker was effected in the right way, He felt the worst for giving up Anna, He was one of the ones that chased after her. He was the one has Elizabeth put it consumed himself in his apartment for 20 years. So He had the right drive, The correct conditions to be the one to succeed where all had failed.

A_D said:

DPhoenix said: probably been noted up in the comments somewhere but the Lutec twins are the same person from different universes right?
there is the voxophone recording where the female lutec talks about sending messages to her brother and another where she notes they are separated by a mere chromosome. also the kinetiscope recording announcing her brother's arrival in columbia.


Yep, you would be correct my good sir. Most of Rosalind's Vox recordings kind of "hinted" at this fact. I'd also like to add a few other stuffs along with this..
If Rosalind and Robert are siblings they must exist (along with their parents) in the same dimension to begin with. This is not the case though, as we can see in one of the scenes during the ending where Rosalind tries to convince Robert to jump into the tear and join her in the "Columbia dimension" (along with Comstock and baby Anna), Robert clearly shows a very deep concern, saying something along the lines of "U MAD BRAH?"
Also, the idea of them being siblings might just be Robert's "new memory" that is created when a person jumps from one dimension to another. Just as Booker creates his "need-to-settle-gambling-dept-with-guy-in-New York" memory in the scene where the couple dragged him into the boat. Also during this scene, when Rosalind points out that "the brain adapts", Robert then replied; "I should know, I lived it" (confirming the fact that he definitely doesn't originate from the same dimension as Rosalind does and suffers the same memory-altering effect just like Booker).



He was hesitant because the tear wasn't stable unlike Elizabeth powers the machines take awhile for the tear to stabilize if you look it was fluxing a lot and could so each of cut closed has they where passing through it like it did on Anna's finger. That is my believe anyway.

Second part is correct, When we see Booker going through it, Stating "Bring us the girl, Wipe away the debt", Rosalind says "Well, The brain adapts" to which Robert replies "I should know I lived it" Robert says I know what hes going through.

edit: Ignore my second part did not fully read your post apologies
Elizabeth at the end looks in the sky and says these aren't stars, they're doors and all that's left is the choosing. So the choosing perhaps refers to the baptism. And you also see the other Booker's and Elizabeth's running out of the other lighthouses to get to that door at which the baptism takes place. (Maybe they all have the same idea to try to kill themselves before becoming Comstock?) But killing himself can't break the cycle because of this which I'll try to explain below.

I'll try to explain it this way. Search up "magnetic fields" in an image search engine. Can you see how the different magnetic fields loop around in a continuous cycle? And the different loops will always end up at the same place which is the physical magnet itself. The "same place" (the magnet) is the baptism and "the "same place" can also be the constants which is the man, the lighthouse and the city. Booker's choice can lead to different outcomes (different magnetic fields/loops). But all those outcomes will always lead him back to the lighthouse, back to the baptism. Even if Booker breaks one loop by killing himself, there are other loops from other universes trying to do the same thing.

Male Lutuce says how does one know how far back to go. In order to stop the cycle, then Booker needs to go back farther in time, before the event that leads him with choices to either accept or refuse baptism. That means he needs to go back to Wounded Knee and not participate then there would be no need for a baptism. So the "core universe" isn't the baptism. It's somewhere farther down back in time.

OK so imagine this. You have a tree. The tree trunk is the constant. The branches are different choices Booker tried to make to change the outcome. Then the roots of the tree is Booker going back in time to change events but it doesn't matter because all the roots lead to the tree trunk. Even if Booker manages to stop a certain event so the baptism doesn't occur, there are other roots that lead to the tree trunk (the constants). In order to stop the cycle, you need to uproot the whole tree or find the source that is giving the tree its nutrients. What is the source? What event is the core universe? How far back in time does he have to go?

To be honest, my mind is boggled and I don't know if anything I said truly makes sense or is even a viable theory. :'@
Quick thing here to help some poeple, The choices in the game where intentional. Who here pulled the gun, or demanded the ticket, Who here, picked the Bird over the cage, Who here ended with a different ending?

Its like Elizabeth says we swim in different oceans but land on the same beach. Its possible that Booker who tripped at 6 and Booker that didn't still end up at the same point Baptism or not. Those to universes merge path in a way like an intersection. Yes there are some decisions where this could happen, But look outside the box, at how many Elizabeth there are at the one meeting at how may others there could be. This could happened in several universes where Booker picks the same faith, No one Booker one universe ending Comstock in every possible universe but several Bookers affect all the universe

Jamriko said:

MrCatBus said:
There are also a lot of questions that need to be addressed in the ending that are being skipped over thanks to this Booker becomes Booker idea. Why does our Elizabeth not follow us to the drowning scene? The one in the middle is not wearing the necklace and Booker is confused and asks who she is. She wears it through the entire ending up until that point. Also are the other Elizabeths missing fingers? To me they don't seem to be, especially the one on the right that grabs his arm. Is this Elizabeth different to the ones you tried to save before in some way? Also I think her not following you through basically means she was outside the universes when they were erased and so now exists as the Lutece twins do, setting us up for DLC.


Interesting... Could that mean that the Lutece twins are free and Elizabeth perhaps takes their place as being trapped between universes? Is there any evidence of Lady Lutece's theory of them freeing themselves if the circle is broken? (It's only logical that the Twins are doing this to help themselves as well as Booker). This could explain why we don't see Elizabeth disappear on the final piano key.
OR the fact that she isn't wearing the neckband could point to the fact that because Comstock doesn't exist anymore (therefore Columbia was never built) means that Booker never chose which Pendant to give Elizabeth and Elizabeth never received one, which could also point to the fact that the Lutece's are free - they were never there to present her with it.
--------------------
What I'm really stuck on though is how Comstock doesn't exist. If there are truly infinite possibilities, it should be (as far as I know) possible that Comstock can still come to pass. He can still exist if Booker is still alive, right? Booker has still gone through Wounded Knee, he's still in debt (seen in the after-credits, the wallpaper is still torn). So, there's still the possibility that he goes to the baptism. Perhaps I don't understand the theory fully... Does him dying there in one dimension make it a constant? That if he goes to the same place on the same day he will always drown?
I think I need to read up on how all of the theories work... Does anyone know which real theories I should look into? (String Theory, etc)



Anna's birth is after the Baptism, other wise Comstock would have give birth to Elizabeth and not need to buy her. So this Booker is free from the Baptism choice already.
Okay, so all 'Comstock multiverse inconsistencies' aside, let me see if i got this right? There are two possible outcomes for the ending of the game depending on which perspective we choose to accept:

The two perspectives are:
(a) Our Booker DID break the loop
or
(b) Our Booker DID NOT break the loop

The tallies on the board:
--(a) So, if our Booker did break the loop, then he must be 'special' than the rest of the 121 Bookers that came before him. I mean, if all Bookers are the same then the very 1st Booker that came to Columbia would have already succeeded in erasing Comstock and all of Columbia, leaving no room for a 2nd, let alone the 122nd Booker to come to Columbia and flip the coin. This is not the case however (as we can see from the tally board), so if we choose perspective (a), we must also accept that the Booker we're playing (the 122nd Booker) is special and unique than the rest of them, which allows him to succeed in breaking the loop where the rest of them failed.
--(b) If we choose perspective (b), then our 122nd Booker is exactly the same as all his 121 predecessors. Meaning that there will be a 123rd Booker, 124th Booker, 125th Booker and so on that will come to Columbia and flip the coin after him. (probably the next three dlc's that are coming will be the exact same game, only we're playing as these three Bookers. It's called Bioshock INFINITE for a reason right? Lol. Just kidding of course ^^)

The post-credit ending:
--(a) If our Booker did break the loop, then the ending would be a 'happily ever after'. No Comstock, no Columbia, no banging on the door asking for his girl. This Booker would be a normal father raising his child in a normal life.
--(b) If the Booker we played is just another old, ordinary Booker then eventually, there will be that knocking on the door asking for his girl after the post-credit scene and this Booker will continue on pursuing Elizabeth in Columbia as the 123rd Booker etc etc

I thought I'd just put it out there to see whether these two perspectives check out... that and the fact that I'd like to hear if anyone has a good reason why perspective (a) or (b) is more valid than the other? At this point, I'm more inclined to go with (a) but that is just personal preference, no solid reasoning or argument though. Cheers. :)
Everyone keeps hiding behind the Infinite Universes and applying it to everything BUT Booker, If you use the Infinite Universes then you have to apply it to EVERYTHING. Which means there HAS to be a Booker that has been effect the most by giving away Anna. This Booker has the most determination and drive to see Anna saved, even if he feels its just a mission to rid him of his debt. He has the drive to complete this mission. Out of the other 121 Booker's, Some could simply of died, Others given up, A lot of Booker's could also have moved on with their life's got married had a child, etc, Its this fact that makes the pool of Bookers so small for the Twins to choice from.

Their thought process who be bring the strongest Booker to try safe Anna which isn't really the correct conditions has this Booker mightn't have the drive to see it to the end. Now there is a small pool of Bookers affected in the correct way to complete this mission.

Ali_Dumi said: Everyone keeps hiding behind the Infinite Universes and applying it to everything BUT Booker, If you use the Infinite Universes then you have to apply it to EVERYTHING. Which means there HAS to be a Booker that has been effect the most by giving away Anna. This Booker has the most determination and drive to see Anna saved, even if he feels its just a mission to rid him of his debt. He has the drive to complete this mission. Out of the other 121 Booker's, Some could simply of died, Others given up, A lot of Booker's could also have moved on with their life's got married had a child, etc, Its this fact that makes the pool of Bookers so small for the Twins to choice from.
Their thought process who be bring the strongest Booker to try safe Anna which isn't really the correct conditions has this Booker mightn't have the drive to see it to the end. Now there is a small pool of Bookers affected in the correct way to complete this mission.



I completely agree with you on this. I had this same thought last night. This Booker *is* special, and has the determination, and love to save his daughter.
I am loving this thread!! Just finished my second play-trough. Believe to be the most amazing game I have ever played!

I still have some unresolved questions. Wondering if any of you could help out here.

1. The vigors, Fink is the one who made them. But how? I can't seem to remember if i've heard the explanation trough the game.

In Bioshock 1 the story surrounding the Plasmids fits right into the story of the fall of rapture, but in Infinite, they don't seem that important.

2. When you make the coin toss with, you choose heads, and it becomes heads. Our Booker becomes the 123 to choose heads. My question is this: If our Booker is the one to breake the circle, shouldn't he have gotten tails? To stand out from the others?

Thoughts? theories? PaulV?
Who this Booker is doesn't really matter in the slightest. Plus he doesn't even remember his daughter until the end so I don't see how that could drive him.

Look at it this way: the twins don't know how to stop these events from happening. They keep bringing Booker to Columbia to rescue Elizabeth and fix things, it's Elizabeth who realises Booker needs to die at the moment of his baptism. All Booker's actions in Columbia ultimately amount to nothing, it's Elizabeth that's important.

So with that in mind, why does the death of a random agent stop the cycle? Haven't other Elizabeths already drowned other Bookers in other universes? After all there are an infinite number of them, which means there are an infinite amount of drownings and failures.

Another thing that's confusing me is Booker technically can't die due to random circumstance. Chance always ends up the same way so I'm guessing he can't die in other universes unless it's as a result of his own decision (letting Elizabeth drown him) i.e. if he crosses a road without looking and doesn't get hit by a car he'll never get hit by that car in any universe. So how many of them have made it that far given that? How many times has Elizabeth tried to kill Booker and end the cycle?

Another point which is incredibly confusing: every time Booker makes a decision in Columbia there must be a separate universe created in which he makes the other decision. How many copies of this Booker/Elizabeth do we have since the start of the game and how do their stories differ? Did every single one of those Bookers agree to die at the end? If not, it only takes one to restart the entire thing and leave Comstock in existence.

I'm really starting to think that the point is that it all starts over again when you play the game through a second time. I think Levine in his fiendish genius made the ending not make sense so we played the game again (and lived the entire thing over again... we begin and end in Bookers office and follow the same path but no matter what choices we make the ending never changes). Hence the title Bioshock Infinite.

It doesn't make sense that this Booker (who has already refused his baptism in his own universe) can kill Comstock forever by sacrificing himself. He isn't, and can never be Comstock, by virtue of the choice that he has already made. Even if he does take the place of the Booker in that universe there will simply be another branch where he declines to sacrifice himself for Elizabeth because choices are what make the universes diverge.

Look at the ending again, there is no child crying, there is no visual proof of Anna being back. The date has reset to when he gave her up. Time to go again.
Even tho he doesn't remember giving up Anna in his conscious mind his subconscious would still remember. His subconscious is whats connecting these memories in order to protect itself from the shock of changing universes, Has it does with almost every problem we face in life. Where do you think Nightmares come from etc. But back on track the "Girl for the debt" is the Subconscious protecting itself, So It is possible that it would still remember, So Booker would have a deep drive to save Elizabeth all most an obsession but still not be able to explain it.

At the choice Booker doesn't become reborn Booker continues has Booker, Only Comstock is reborn. So given the right situations Booker can relive this choice and Yes can pick to become Comstock.

But my believe is that has Elizabeth says All oceans are leading to the same shore. So no mater which option these Booker's pick they will all end up at the same point the Baptism. I feel considering how alike these Brookers would be to over come similar odds would have the same mind set and would be willing to put their daughters life above all else and willingly give themselves, Like any father would. Especially after seeing what his actions of selling her would do to her. I know I would rather sacrifice myself for someone I loved. All the Bookers that get this choice all would of seen what their selflessness does to Anna/Elizabeth, And I like to believe this would further motivate them to do the right thing!

So from this I can't see how any variable can change this decision, To me this make the Baptism a constant of drowning!

MrCatBus said: Look at the ending again, there is no child crying, there is no visual proof of Anna being back. The date has reset to when he gave her up. Time to go again.



That is what annoys me its a cliff hanger seems a lot like a cop out in order to stop fights, about its possibility. The game developers mustn't of wanted be the ones to say Booker and Anna live happily ever after or that they don't and some how they are still stuck in this never ending loop. Instead leaving to the individuals comprehension.

I enjoy the reset don't get me wrong, Getting my head around all the other details, I enjoy problem solving which is maybe why I'm enjoying this all so much.
Hey guys, I read most of your comments and they really helped me make better sense of the ending, thanks!

Two things though:

1. During the game, it is revealed that Comstock took credit for winning the Battle at Wounded-Knee and Slate is the only one that adamantly accuses Comstock of lying and falsifying the past since he knows that himself and Booker are the ones that helped win the Battle. However, since at the end of the game it is revealed that Comstock is Booker, does this mean that everything Comstock claimed to do at Wounded-Knee (winning the Battle for America) is actually true since he is Booker?

2. At the beginning of the game when the twins appear and ask Booker to choose heads or tails, I SWEAR during my playthrough Booker said tails, though the coin did land on heads. I don't know, maybe I'm remembering it incorrectly, but I'm almost certain Booker said tails. I think I'm going to do another playthrough later and I'll let you know what happens

Gaslight27 said: Hey guys, I read most of your comments and they really helped me make better sense of the ending, thanks!
Two things though:
1. During the game, it is revealed that Comstock took credit for winning the Battle at Wounded-Knee and Slate is the only one that adamantly accuses Comstock of lying and falsifying the past since he knows that himself and Booker are the ones that helped win the Battle. However, since at the end of the game it is revealed that Comstock is Booker, does this mean that everything Comstock claimed to do at Wounded-Knee (winning the Battle for America) is actually true since he is Booker?
2. At the beginning of the game when the twins appear and ask Booker to choose heads or tails, I SWEAR during my playthrough Booker said tails, though the coin did land on heads. I don't know, maybe I'm remembering it incorrectly, but I'm almost certain Booker said tails. I think I'm going to do another playthrough later and I'll let you know what happens



I think he said tails on my first playthrough too but it doesn't mean anything. That's his choice, he can make different choices but the outcome is always the same (it lands heads).

Gaslight27 said: Hey guys, I read most of your comments and they really helped me make better sense of the ending, thanks!
Two things though:
1. During the game, it is revealed that Comstock took credit for winning the Battle at Wounded-Knee and Slate is the only one that adamantly accuses Comstock of lying and falsifying the past since he knows that himself and Booker are the ones that helped win the Battle. However, since at the end of the game it is revealed that Comstock is Booker, does this mean that everything Comstock claimed to do at Wounded-Knee (winning the Battle for America) is actually true since he is Booker?
2. At the beginning of the game when the twins appear and ask Booker to choose heads or tails, I SWEAR during my playthrough Booker said tails, though the coin did land on heads. I don't know, maybe I'm remembering it incorrectly, but I'm almost certain Booker said tails. I think I'm going to do another playthrough later and I'll let you know what happens



1) Yes, The problem is that Booker changed his name and cause of the machines he's been around it has affect his looks, Which is why Slate is trying to discredit him.

2) I'm pretty sure tails was said too, But has said above no more detail really need to be said, From my point of view anyway.

MrCatBus said: Look at the ending again, there is no child crying, there is no visual proof of Anna being back. The date has reset to when he gave her up. Time to go again.



Hmm.. so even though the post-ending Booker might remember the whole events of the game and everything about Anna, when the twins starts knocking on his door and drag him into another boat, he'll just starts recreating his "need-to-settle-gambling-dept-with-guy-in-New York" memory... again. And thus the cycle begins anew. X_X
Heh, a closed loop huh? Well fine by me, I've always loved 'Shutter Island' anyway!!

Ali_Dumi said:

Gaslight27 said: Hey guys, I read most of your comments and they really helped me make better sense of the ending, thanks!
Two things though:
1. During the game, it is revealed that Comstock took credit for winning the Battle at Wounded-Knee and Slate is the only one that adamantly accuses Comstock of lying and falsifying the past since he knows that himself and Booker are the ones that helped win the Battle. However, since at the end of the game it is revealed that Comstock is Booker, does this mean that everything Comstock claimed to do at Wounded-Knee (winning the Battle for America) is actually true since he is Booker?
2. At the beginning of the game when the twins appear and ask Booker to choose heads or tails, I SWEAR during my playthrough Booker said tails, though the coin did land on heads. I don't know, maybe I'm remembering it incorrectly, but I'm almost certain Booker said tails. I think I'm going to do another playthrough later and I'll let you know what happens


1) Yes, The problem is that Booker changed his name and cause of the machines he's been around it has affect his looks, Which is why Slate is trying to discredit him.
2) I'm pretty sure tails was said too, But has said above no more detail really need to be said, From my point of view anyway.



Thanks!
I honestly can't bring myself to look at it as a closed loop. It's just too depressing. Why would the creators of the game reward your efforts with the message that all you did was in vain? More than my own feelings though, after reading the article and ALL of the comments, I feel the most evidence definitely lies with the theory that this Booker is special, and that by sacrificing yourself at the end of the game, you stopped Comstock for good. I know that it goes against the actual multiverse theory, but within the confines of the game - I think it works just fine. You defeated the evil within yourself - Comstock, saved millions of lives, and get to live a happy life with your daughter. The end! :D

Trudy450 said: I honestly can't bring myself to look at it as a closed loop. It's just too depressing. Why would the creators of the game reward your efforts with the message that all you did was in vain? More than my own feelings though, after reading the article and ALL of the comments, I feel the most evidence definitely lies with the theory that this Booker is special, and that by sacrificing yourself at the end of the game, you stopped Comstock for good. I know that it goes against the actual multiverse theory, but within the confines of the game - I think it works just fine. You defeated the evil within yourself - Comstock, saved millions of lives, and get to live a happy life with your daughter. The end!



Well, again I guess it depends on which perspective you want to choose anyway... I honestly am happy with any of the two as the game puts it; 'there is a certain beauty in both the bird and the cage'.

--In one ending Booker is the 'bird', living happily with his daughter with not a single worry in the world.
--And in the other Booker is the 'cage', condemned to repeat his life over and over again for his terrible crime of selling his own daughter.

*Opens up the box with the two necklaces* So, which one will YOU choose player? ^_^

Trudy450 said: I honestly can't bring myself to look at it as a closed loop. It's just too depressing. Why would the creators of the game reward your efforts with the message that all you did was in vain? More than my own feelings though, after reading the article and ALL of the comments, I feel the most evidence definitely lies with the theory that this Booker is special, and that by sacrificing yourself at the end of the game, you stopped Comstock for good. I know that it goes against the actual multiverse theory, but within the confines of the game - I think it works just fine. You defeated the evil within yourself - Comstock, saved millions of lives, and get to live a happy life with your daughter. The end!



Well, again I guess it depends on which perspective you want to choose anyway... I honestly am happy with any of the two as the game puts it; 'there is a certain beauty in both the bird and the cage'.

--In one ending Booker is the 'bird', living happily with his daughter with not a single worry in the world.
--And in the other Booker is the 'cage', condemned to repeat his life over and over again for his terrible crime of selling his own daughter.

*Opens up the box with the two necklaces* So, which one will YOU choose player? ^_^
^ : O Double Post

Trudy450 said: I honestly can't bring myself to look at it as a closed loop. It's just too depressing. Why would the creators of the game reward your efforts with the message that all you did was in vain? More than my own feelings though, after reading the article and ALL of the comments, I feel the most evidence definitely lies with the theory that this Booker is special, and that by sacrificing yourself at the end of the game, you stopped Comstock for good. I know that it goes against the actual multiverse theory, but within the confines of the game - I think it works just fine. You defeated the evil within yourself - Comstock, saved millions of lives, and get to live a happy life with your daughter. The end!



It doesn't break the theory at all. This field isn't well know, Even experts aren't really all that sure what happens or can happen.

Everything you have done and choose to do is a closed loop, Cause there is no possible way for you to fix/change those actions. Unless one can time travel, Then you could effectively open that loop and recreate it to a different closed loop, That is the key tho you can't have an open loop some where you are repeating that process over and over again.
I suppose. But dammit, it's frustrating! Heh. My mind needs closure or else I can't function properly. =_=

It would have been neat if choosing one or the other would give you a different ending, but I guess that goes against the whole "every ocean ends up on the same shore" thing. So confusing. :'@
It was nice of the Developers to pick the two of the most complex and least understood subjects, and just dump them on us. :P But I guess they both go hand in hand. Maybe we are guinea pigs, They are using all of us in other to attempt to further their understanding on the subject. Like The Folding@home program that used people PS3's to do medical research. :P
I think there's a massive of significance in the coin toss at the beginning of the game. Booker can call either heads or tails, meaning he has a choice but the outcome is always heads. Showing that despite his choices nothing can change.
It could be possible that Elizabeth was testing Booker at the end to see if he would let her drown him hence ending the cycle (supposedly). Since he would be the first to do it she would forgive him for selling her as a child and use her ability to create worlds that she got from destroying the siphon to make a world where he could be with her without any knock at the door. It's like the whole journey was a way for Booker to prove himself to Elizabeth for giving her away.

MrCatBus said: I think there's a massive of significance in the coin toss at the beginning of the game. Booker can call either heads or tails, meaning he has a choice but the outcome is always heads. Showing that despite his choices nothing can change.



Does he really have a choice though? Male Lutece seems to predict what Booker will say with the Coin Toss and the Neck-Pendant. (I've no idea why Lady Lutece is opposing him, perhaps just because they don't get along). Plus, you, as a player, don't choose for him. It's like he doesn't have a choice - the choices have already been made and Lutece has tapped into it. Perhaps, in another Universe, he always chooses tails but dies before he reaches the next checkpoint. Of course, it's all speculation. We can't be sure.

Besides, nothing major does change in any of the many choices you make during BioShock Infinite. You always end up in the same place, with the same people at the same time.
Another thing I noticed is that the AD on Booker's hand could refer to After Death, which is the current time in terms of BC and AD for Christians. Since the brand is called his "penance" by Lutece it could mean that he will be forgiven by Elizabeth (who is AD) after his death. I could also be looking into this way too much.

forknmybut said:
Just some comments. It's ridiculous that Booker never rows, chose heads 121 times and gets ball #77 everytime. It's like the Letuces are experimenting to see what is a constant and what is a variable with every iteration. I'm assuming at the end the changing variable was that the Elizabeth from the future gives Booker the songbird card? It's also ironic that Booker drowns Comstock and then gets drowned in the end.



To be clear, he doesn't "choose" heads each time, it's the result of the coin flip every time. Which is great because we think of coin flips as being random and in reality, well, these realities, it's a constant. What's shown to be a variable is choice, i.e. free will.

As to why he never rows, it's because of him being discombobulated from going through the tear into the Comstock reality. As Male Lutece says, he's re-organizing his memories to integrate himself into the new world he's in. Some form of cognitive dissonance. (nose bleeds) You saw this throughout the game where some people had that weird warping effect around their bodies/heads and seemed to be staggering.

I'm not sure why 121 or 122 seems to be a magic number as implied by the author or someone else earlier.

chrizzle8 said: Another thing I noticed is that the AD on Booker's hand could refer to After Death, which is the current time in terms of BC and AD for Christians. Since the brand is called his "penance" by Lutece it could mean that he will be forgiven by Elizabeth (who is AD) after his death. I could also be looking into this way too much.



I'm sorry but wrong, AD is Anno Domini, Medieval latin for "In the year of the Lord" Nice idea tho.

MrCatBus said:
Also I never heard it explicitly stated in the game that one version of Booker replaced another, maybe I missed that and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. On the other hand the game does seem to imply that our Booker is a separate entity, after all he can enter a universe where he died so his existence and identity must be independent of that of the original universe's Booker. I suppose you could explain that away by saying that if there isn't a Booker in existence there currently it's fine but I haven't heard that in the game anywhere either.



Actually, I'm pretty sure when they crossed over into the Martyr Booker world where he was killed, our Booker makes some comments about how he's starting to have memories of events that have happened there.

Borahorza said:

MrCatBus said:
Also I never heard it explicitly stated in the game that one version of Booker replaced another, maybe I missed that and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. On the other hand the game does seem to imply that our Booker is a separate entity, after all he can enter a universe where he died so his existence and identity must be independent of that of the original universe's Booker. I suppose you could explain that away by saying that if there isn't a Booker in existence there currently it's fine but I haven't heard that in the game anywhere either.


Actually, I'm pretty sure when they crossed over into the Martyr Booker world where he was killed, our Booker makes some comments about how he's starting to have memories of events that have happened there.



Jep, and Elizabeth snaps him out of his thoughts

chrizzle8 said: It could be possible that Elizabeth was testing Booker at the end to see if he would let her drown him hence ending the cycle (supposedly). Since he would be the first to do it she would forgive him for selling her as a child and use her ability to create worlds that she got from destroying the siphon to make a world where he could be with her without any knock at the door. It's like the whole journey was a way for Booker to prove himself to Elizabeth for giving her away.



This. I'm actually REALLY getting that feeling from Elizabeth near the ending. At first she seems excited when they first come to the sea of lighthouses, but as the events unfold she seems to get sadder and more nervous - like she's not sure if Booker will make the decision to sacrifice himself, thus proving himself, and redeeming himself. Which in turn will give both of them a chance to live peaceful lives, and not have to go through all of this. Elizabeth feels really bad the first time she sees Booker kill people, and as the game goes on she asks Booker a few times, if there is any way they could redeem themselves. By the end she's ready, but she's nervous as to whether Booker will be or not.

Ali_Dumi said:

chrizzle8 said: Another thing I noticed is that the AD on Booker's hand could refer to After Death, which is the current time in terms of BC and AD for Christians. Since the brand is called his "penance" by Lutece it could mean that he will be forgiven by Elizabeth (who is AD) after his death. I could also be looking into this way too much.


I'm sorry but wrong, AD is Anno Domini, Medieval latin for "In the year of the Lord" Nice idea tho.



I'm sorry, I should have clarified. I know that after death isn't the actual term, but some people, especially English speakers, think that after death logically follows before Christ. Since the incorrect term is rather well known, I figured the theory could be true. Although I think you're right and it's simply a coincidence born out of a misconception.

Trudy450 said:

chrizzle8 said: It could be possible that Elizabeth was testing Booker at the end to see if he would let her drown him hence ending the cycle (supposedly). Since he would be the first to do it she would forgive him for selling her as a child and use her ability to create worlds that she got from destroying the siphon to make a world where he could be with her without any knock at the door. It's like the whole journey was a way for Booker to prove himself to Elizabeth for giving her away.


This. I'm actually REALLY getting that feeling from Elizabeth near the ending. At first she seems excited when they first come to the sea of lighthouses, but as the events unfold she seems to get sadder and more nervous - like she's not sure if Booker will make the decision to sacrifice himself, thus proving himself, and redeeming himself. Which in turn will give both of them a chance to live peaceful lives, and not have to go through all of this. Elizabeth feels really bad the first time she sees Booker kill people, and as the game goes on she asks Booker a few times, if there is any way they could redeem themselves. By the end she's ready, but she's nervous as to whether Booker will be or not.



True. This could go along with her saying that every single alternate universe leads to one moment. Perhaps this is the one detail she cannot foresee since it is THE decision. She would have seen the infinite amounts of "doors" where he doesn't let her drown him and is worried that this Booker will do the same thing.
Okay, so, if Booker=Comstock and Comstock makes up the false prophet thing to stop his old self (our Booker) from taking back his (Comstock's) version of Anna (Elizabeth), why is it that in this scene www.youtube.com/... there is no AD burnt on Comstock's hand?

Mazdin said: Okay, so, if Booker=Comstock and Comstock makes up the false prophet thing to stop his old self (our Booker) from taking back his (Comstock's) version of Anna (Elizabeth), why is it that in this scene www.youtube.com/... there is no AD burnt on Comstock's hand?



Because he did that as Booker well after the time of the baptism, because he was in deep guilt for giving away his daughter. In Comstock timeline, he never had a daughter, so he wouldn't have branded himself..
A_D
+
So, I just started my 2nd playthrough and thought I should add here this little bit of info that I discovered regarding the dead guy in the lighthouse. This poor fellow is a man hired by Comstock to kill Booker. If you go to the 2nd floor of the lighthouse, you can see a note pinned down to the map on the wall, which says;

"Be prepared. He's on his way. You must stop him. -C "

'C' here must likely refer to Comstock because... well, who else? And who killed this 'hired man' upstairs? The Lutece twins. This explains the "Don't dissapoint us" sign the guy is wearing. The way I see it, they want to protect Booker because without him, they can't go on with their 'thought experiment' (that, and their guilt in the whole baby kidnapping business)

Rosalind: I made it very clear that I don't believe in the exercise.
Robert: The rowing?
Rosalind: No, I Imagine that's wonderful exercise.
Robert: Then what?
Rosalind: The entire thought experiment.
Robert: One goes into an experiment knowing one could fail.
Rosalind: One does not undertake an experiment knowing one has failed.

Interpret that last line however you want. I'm gonna go explore every single INCH of Columbia... again. :D

Ali_Dumi said:

chrizzle8 said: Another thing I noticed is that the AD on Booker's hand could refer to After Death, which is the current time in terms of BC and AD for Christians. Since the brand is called his "penance" by Lutece it could mean that he will be forgiven by Elizabeth (who is AD) after his death. I could also be looking into this way too much.


I'm sorry but wrong, AD is Anno Domini, Medieval latin for "In the year of the Lord" Nice idea tho.



Wrong? How does anyone here have the right to call someone's theory "wrong"? We are all speculating here. We are all trying to piece together the story in our own ways. Unless the theory is total garbage, which his theory is not; it makes some sense, then you can't just put down your fist and call it wrong. Just because it's an incorrect term doesn't mean it's irrelevant.

A_D said: So, I just started my 2nd playthrough and thought I should add here this little bit of info that I discovered regarding the dead guy in the lighthouse. This poor fellow is a man hired by Comstock to kill Booker. If you go to the 2nd floor of the lighthouse, you can see a note pinned down to the map on the wall, which says;
"Be prepared. He's on his way. You must stop him. -C "
'C' here must likely refer to Comstock because... well, who else? And who killed the this 'hired man' upstairs? The Lutece twins. That explains the "Don't dissapoint us" sign the guy is wearing. The way I see it, they want to protect Booker's because without him, they can't go on with their 'thought experiment' (that, and their guilt in the whole baby kidnapping business)
Rosalind: I made it very clear that I don't believe in the exercise.
Robert: The rowing?
Rosalind: No, I Imagine that's wonderful exercise.
Robert: Then what?
Rosalind: The entire thought experiment.
Robert: One goes into an experiment knowing one could fail.
Rosalind: One does not undertake an experiment knowing one has failed.
Interpret that last line however you want. I'm gonna go explore every single INCH of Columbia... again.



Ah! I remember hearing the Lutece's (I think) mentioning a Bounty Hunter. I can't remember where in the game exactly, though... I'll have to keep an ear out when I continue.

Nice job on pointing that out!
There could be a point in that it doesn't matter if there could still be a universe where Comstock exists, or that it's pointless that Booker kills himself if there are so many other universes out there or whatever. It's important that OUR Booker found redemption. This universe that we're in is OURs that we're going through.

Jamriko said:

Ali_Dumi said:

chrizzle8 said: Another thing I noticed is that the AD on Booker's hand could refer to After Death, which is the current time in terms of BC and AD for Christians. Since the brand is called his "penance" by Lutece it could mean that he will be forgiven by Elizabeth (who is AD) after his death. I could also be looking into this way too much.


I'm sorry but wrong, AD is Anno Domini, Medieval latin for "In the year of the Lord" Nice idea tho.


Wrong? How does anyone here have the right to call someone's theory "wrong"? We are all speculating here. We are all trying to piece together the story in our own ways. Unless the theory is total garbage, which his theory is not; it makes some sense, then you can't just put down your fist and call it wrong. Just because it's an incorrect term doesn't mean it's irrelevant.


What he means is that for Christians, AD is not After Death. But if you want to use that theory of AD meaning After Death, that's fine, but historically speaking in the real world that we live in, AD as used in the bible is Anno Domini
What I like about infinite universe theory that the game uses is it's based off actual scientific theories that any possiblity is happening in alternate universes. I was listening to WTF podcast with Marc Maron, and he has Mark Oliver Everett on the show, a musician, and his father is the physicist who came up with the theory decades ago, and they touch on it briefly. It's really cool how it's explored in this video game.
HEY HEY HEY...
Let's just all admit...
that we had the hots for Elizabeth but then felt really guilty upon learning she was actually our daughter...
Regarding Rapture and Columbia. Given that there are infinite worlds there will be ones where Columbia will not exist. So like Elizabeth says, there is always a man and always a city. Along that thought line if neither Columbia or Rapture existed then another visionary would come into existence and build another grand purpose city. Thus given Irrational the Stargate license to print money. Infinite possibility means that they can make sooo many more games that revolve around a main character and a city. Probably will make the next one in the future.

Trudy450 said:

chrizzle8 said: It could be possible that Elizabeth was testing Booker at the end to see if he would let her drown him hence ending the cycle (supposedly). Since he would be the first to do it she would forgive him for selling her as a child and use her ability to create worlds that she got from destroying the siphon to make a world where he could be with her without any knock at the door. It's like the whole journey was a way for Booker to prove himself to Elizabeth for giving her away.


This. I'm actually REALLY getting that feeling from Elizabeth near the ending. At first she seems excited when they first come to the sea of lighthouses, but as the events unfold she seems to get sadder and more nervous - like she's not sure if Booker will make the decision to sacrifice himself, thus proving himself, and redeeming himself. Which in turn will give both of them a chance to live peaceful lives, and not have to go through all of this. Elizabeth feels really bad the first time she sees Booker kill people, and as the game goes on she asks Booker a few times, if there is any way they could redeem themselves. By the end she's ready, but she's nervous as to whether Booker will be or not.



Ok I'm on board, What if to stop the Baptism he must be Baptised. :P Making him reborn, ending a cycle.

chrizzle8 said:

Ali_Dumi said:

chrizzle8 said: Another thing I noticed is that the AD on Booker's hand could refer to After Death, which is the current time in terms of BC and AD for Christians. Since the brand is called his "penance" by Lutece it could mean that he will be forgiven by Elizabeth (who is AD) after his death. I could also be looking into this way too much.


I'm sorry but wrong, AD is Anno Domini, Medieval latin for "In the year of the Lord" Nice idea tho.


I'm sorry, I should have clarified. I know that after death isn't the actual term, but some people, especially English speakers, think that after death logically follows before Christ. Since the incorrect term is rather well known, I figured the theory could be true. Although I think you're right and it's simply a coincidence born out of a misconception.



No need to be sorry :), Just wanted to correct you to keep, This thread going in a correct way, Sorry if it seemed I came on too strong didn't mean to.

A_D said: So, I just started my 2nd playthrough and thought I should add here this little bit of info that I discovered regarding the dead guy in the lighthouse. This poor fellow is a man hired by Comstock to kill Booker. If you go to the 2nd floor of the lighthouse, you can see a note pinned down to the map on the wall, which says;
"Be prepared. He's on his way. You must stop him. -C "
'C' here must likely refer to Comstock because... well, who else? And who killed this 'hired man' upstairs? The Lutece twins. This explains the "Don't dissapoint us" sign the guy is wearing. The way I see it, they want to protect Booker because without him, they can't go on with their 'thought experiment' (that, and their guilt in the whole baby kidnapping business)
Rosalind: I made it very clear that I don't believe in the exercise.
Robert: The rowing?
Rosalind: No, I Imagine that's wonderful exercise.
Robert: Then what?
Rosalind: The entire thought experiment.
Robert: One goes into an experiment knowing one could fail.
Rosalind: One does not undertake an experiment knowing one has failed.
Interpret that last line however you want. I'm gonna go explore every single INCH of Columbia... again.



Nice find. Will have to get another playthough when I get home now :D

Jamriko said:

Ali_Dumi said:

chrizzle8 said: Another thing I noticed is that the AD on Booker's hand could refer to After Death, which is the current time in terms of BC and AD for Christians. Since the brand is called his "penance" by Lutece it could mean that he will be forgiven by Elizabeth (who is AD) after his death. I could also be looking into this way too much.


I'm sorry but wrong, AD is Anno Domini, Medieval latin for "In the year of the Lord" Nice idea tho.


Wrong? How does anyone here have the right to call someone's theory "wrong"? We are all speculating here. We are all trying to piece together the story in our own ways. Unless the theory is total garbage, which his theory is not; it makes some sense, then you can't just put down your fist and call it wrong. Just because it's an incorrect term doesn't mean it's irrelevant.



I don't see the Developers putting an incorrect term into the game, If so it would lead people to think what other false facts have they based their game on. And I did credit him on his idea, I think there is something else at play that is making you take such offence to my comment, Am I'm sorry that you have, but it wasn't meant to be offensive just keep the thread going, Cause has you said we are speculating but what good is that if we also don't discuss and go over the plausibility of these theories.

LorcanW said: HEY HEY HEY...
Let's just all admit...
that we had the hots for Elizabeth but then felt really guilty upon learning she was actually our daughter...



lol yea that awkward moment when you put the pieces together :P
Tho at the same time there didn't really feel any connection, There was the love to protect her but it didn't feel romantic love. Maybe deep down he knew she was his daughter.

Ali_Dumi said:

Jamriko said:

Ali_Dumi said:

chrizzle8 said: Another thing I noticed is that the AD on Booker's hand could refer to After Death, which is the current time in terms of BC and AD for Christians. Since the brand is called his "penance" by Lutece it could mean that he will be forgiven by Elizabeth (who is AD) after his death. I could also be looking into this way too much.


I'm sorry but wrong, AD is Anno Domini, Medieval latin for "In the year of the Lord" Nice idea tho.


Wrong? How does anyone here have the right to call someone's theory "wrong"? We are all speculating here. We are all trying to piece together the story in our own ways. Unless the theory is total garbage, which his theory is not; it makes some sense, then you can't just put down your fist and call it wrong. Just because it's an incorrect term doesn't mean it's irrelevant.


I don't see the Developers putting an incorrect term into the game, If so it would lead people to think what other false facts have they based their game on. And I did credit him on his idea, I think there is something else at play that is making you take such offence to my comment, Am I'm sorry that you have, but it wasn't meant to be offensive just keep the thread going, Cause has you said we are speculating but what good is that if we also don't discuss and go over the plausibility of these theories.



Perhaps I misunderstood. I apologize.

Ali_Dumi said:

LorcanW said: HEY HEY HEY...
Let's just all admit...
that we had the hots for Elizabeth but then felt really guilty upon learning she was actually our daughter...


lol yea that awkward moment when you put the pieces together
Tho at the same time there didn't really feel any connection, There was the love to protect her but it didn't feel romantic love. Maybe deep down he knew she was his daughter.



Or he simply had the (currently) 'uncommon' decency to stick to his job and not get involved in a lady's life. Besides, perhaps there exists a dimension where he did... Ugh.. Nevermind.

Ali_Dumi said:

Trudy450 said:

chrizzle8 said: It could be possible that Elizabeth was testing Booker at the end to see if he would let her drown him hence ending the cycle (supposedly). Since he would be the first to do it she would forgive him for selling her as a child and use her ability to create worlds that she got from destroying the siphon to make a world where he could be with her without any knock at the door. It's like the whole journey was a way for Booker to prove himself to Elizabeth for giving her away.


This. I'm actually REALLY getting that feeling from Elizabeth near the ending. At first she seems excited when they first come to the sea of lighthouses, but as the events unfold she seems to get sadder and more nervous - like she's not sure if Booker will make the decision to sacrifice himself, thus proving himself, and redeeming himself. Which in turn will give both of them a chance to live peaceful lives, and not have to go through all of this. Elizabeth feels really bad the first time she sees Booker kill people, and as the game goes on she asks Booker a few times, if there is any way they could redeem themselves. By the end she's ready, but she's nervous as to whether Booker will be or not.


Ok I'm on board, What if to stop the Baptism he must be Baptised. Making him reborn, ending a cycle.



I like it. It still centers around the baptism, which is the one point of every door that is the same, but since Elizabeth is the one "baptizing" Booker it ends the cycle. This also shows that she forgives him as she is washing him of his sins. Then she transports him to a world where they could be together as father and daughter without the Columbia malarkey.

I'm sure a lot of you have already read this, but I think it's the best explanation for the plot and the ending - despite some grammatical problems:

bioshock.wikia.com/...
How come you think only the Bookers that should become Comstack are drowned by Elizabeth. To me it seems pretty clear that it is pointed out in the story that the booker(s) that went to the are “both Comstack and Booker”, and without killing both before it happens there would always be a Booker to choose the Baptism and become Comstack.

Which would then make it really hard to explain the post-credit though
1) heaven/dream (of an alcoholic)
2) A version where he didnt go to the baptism in the first place

Please help me... Im stuck :(

Mithoslol said: How come you think only the Bookers that should become Comstack are drowned by Elizabeth. To me it seems pretty clear that it is pointed out in the story that the booker(s) that went to the are “both Comstack and Booker”, and without killing both before it happens there would always be a Booker to choose the Baptism and become Comstack.
Which would then make it really hard to explain the post-credit though
1) heaven/dream (of an alcoholic)
2) A version where he didnt go to the baptism in the first place
Please help me... Im stuck



The thing is, if he goes to the baptism he can chose to refuse the baptism or accept it. If he refuses it, he is just Booker, but if he accepts it, he will drown and so Comstock won't exist.

Ant911 said: I have been thinking about the different versions of the main players in all the bioshock games. Are they counterparts of each other in the multiverse?
Such as: is Fink a version of Fontaine (Rapture) and Fitzroy or Slate a version of Atlas (Rapture)?
I like @CapnMAshy theory about B.D. = Big Daddy or Booker Dewitt.
Also, I want to know more about Jeremiah Fink. Fink is as slick and slimy as Fontaine, they both developed enhancing tonics (Plasmids/Vigor) for purchase and sell them in similarly styled vending machines. I dont think its a coincidence that even the sounds are similar from the vending machines in both universes.


in one of the voxophones Fink says his brother found tears and heared musik in them leading in all the musik in the game and he also says he is watching an biologist ( Tanebaum / Fontaine ?? )


also you missed that we are not drowning the booker who is ether accepts baptism or rejects. we drown the Comstock Booker so Columbia is never build and he never offers Booker to sell his daughter leading in the postcredit scene. Noone said he has no debts he just isn't selling Anna and he ask if Anna makes the noise because he is dealing with one Booker (Comstock) who is dieing

sorry for my bad english :S

Bokumetsu said: It was noted that Booker and the Big Daddy's both have the same initials. I would assume then that the big sister in the following game would have a likeness to the songbird? Maybe not, maybe the songbird is more like the lady that imprisoned the little sisters in the first place. Also Rapture is in another dimension, different than Columbia. The tears that Elizabeth/Anna can make sends them to other possibilities, Rapture being one of them. As the title would hint "Infinite" is the number of possibilities that could happen.
**EDIT**
After playing through a few more times I've realized that when Elizabeth brings Booker to the baptism the second time and KILLS him, she is killing the Booker that becomes Comstock! Well, you already knew that. What you may not know is...
The beginning of the game until you arrive in Columbia are made-up memories that Booker develops to make sense of traveling through a tear to the Columbia Dimension, the Dimension that exists because of Comstocks existence. 1-2-2 ringing of the bells is related to the number of times Booker has traveled to Columbia, same as the coin. Why that many times? In the Dimension where Booker refuses the baptism, events happen in his life that end up giving him a child (other dimensions probably have him w/o a child just the same but lets ignore those). What the game doesn't outright tell us is that a choice was made. Give the baby to Comstock or Comstock travels to the dimension and KIDNAPS her (thus Elizabeth looses a finger).
So to bring me back to prior paragraph. The booker that refused the baptism and had the child never had any run-in's with Comstock. No debt, no kidnapping. THAT is why we hear baby Anna crying. The ONLY Booker that died at the baptism was the one who made the choice to become Comstock. Unfortunately because the Elizabeth we know and love only came into being (raised) as we know her because of Comstock - that version of her is gone forever.
Hopefully that explains everything


If anyone can make additions/corrections that would be great.
Not sure if anyone else had this idea, but it's what has cemented the genius of this game in my mind...

We are all playing a Booker, one of the infinite, in the many-worlds theory they are using as a plot device. We are the variables and the narrative is the constant. Very meta. Very subtle. And very impressive.
^Good points by Bokumetsu. This is also my interpretation of the ending, but I respect other interpretations because the endings open-endedness welcomes that.
Hey guys, just a quick question.

The OP seems to be assuming that the story-based content coming out for Bioshock Infinite is going to center around Booker and Elizabeth. I was just wondering if 2K has confirmed that, or if it's just speculation? Couldn't it be that they just want to keep the ending intact without further explanation/tweaking?

And even if they have confirmed the DLC going to be about Booker, couldn't it be about one of the alternate Bookers and not OURS? Like resistance Booker, Comstock Booker....

Just wondering. I don't know what else they could possibly do with OUR Booker. But multiple-universe Booker stories could be fun to explore.
I read over this post, and considering this is the sixth I have read so far, I am satisfied with this far more than any others, it actually gives ideas for sequals and allows these great characters to come back in further games. Thanks for the post! I am definately going to play this game again.
Thank for this post Paul. It also gathered a lot of intelligent commenters who discuss the plot compared to other sites with commenters that call the twist a gimmick. *cough* kotaku/youtube! Thanks to all you guys!

Anyways. One thing I don´t get is, who is the man in the light house? Any theory on that? "DO NOT DISSAPOINT US!"

Also Paul, thanks for Showgirls!
;)
There is actually a comment that explained it ^^

A_D said: So, I just started my 2nd playthrough and thought I should add here this little bit of info that I discovered regarding the dead guy in the lighthouse. This poor fellow is a man hired by Comstock to kill Booker. If you go to the 2nd floor of the lighthouse, you can see a note pinned down to the map on the wall, which says;
"Be prepared. He's on his way. You must stop him. -C "
'C' here must likely refer to Comstock because... well, who else? And who killed this 'hired man' upstairs? The Lutece twins. This explains the "Don't dissapoint us" sign the guy is wearing. The way I see it, they want to protect Booker because without him, they can't go on with their 'thought experiment' (that, and their guilt in the whole baby kidnapping business)
Rosalind: I made it very clear that I don't believe in the exercise.
Robert: The rowing?
Rosalind: No, I Imagine that's wonderful exercise.
Robert: Then what?
Rosalind: The entire thought experiment.
Robert: One goes into an experiment knowing one could fail.
Rosalind: One does not undertake an experiment knowing one has failed.
Interpret that last line however you want. I'm gonna go explore every single INCH of Columbia... again.


Aaaaah, I missed that post as I tried to read thru these 5-6AM in bed... That explanation makes perfect sense. Thanks!

Bokumetsu said:

Bokumetsu said: It was noted that Booker and the Big Daddy's both have the same initials. I would assume then that the big sister in the following game would have a likeness to the songbird? Maybe not, maybe the songbird is more like the lady that imprisoned the little sisters in the first place. Also Rapture is in another dimension, different than Columbia. The tears that Elizabeth/Anna can make sends them to other possibilities, Rapture being one of them. As the title would hint "Infinite" is the number of possibilities that could happen.
**EDIT**
After playing through a few more times I've realized that when Elizabeth brings Booker to the baptism the second time and KILLS him, she is killing the Booker that becomes Comstock! Well, you already knew that. What you may not know is...
The beginning of the game until you arrive in Columbia are made-up memories that Booker develops to make sense of traveling through a tear to the Columbia Dimension, the Dimension that exists because of Comstocks existence. 1-2-2 ringing of the bells is related to the number of times Booker has traveled to Columbia, same as the coin. Why that many times? In the Dimension where Booker refuses the baptism, events happen in his life that end up giving him a child (other dimensions probably have him w/o a child just the same but lets ignore those). What the game doesn't outright tell us is that a choice was made. Give the baby to Comstock or Comstock travels to the dimension and KIDNAPS her (thus Elizabeth looses a finger).
So to bring me back to prior paragraph. The booker that refused the baptism and had the child never had any run-in's with Comstock. No debt, no kidnapping. THAT is why we hear baby Anna crying. The ONLY Booker that died at the baptism was the one who made the choice to become Comstock. Unfortunately because the Elizabeth we know and love only came into being (raised) as we know her because of Comstock - that version of her is gone forever.
Hopefully that explains everything


If anyone can make additions/corrections that would be great.



No the Booker we play has, already made the choice not to be Baptised the events of this game play out 20 years after Booker sells Anna. This Booker is merely the closed to Comstock with out being Comstock.
4 out of 5?

Still trying to come up with an explanation for drowning Booker...

A quote from Bioshock Wikia: "Elizabeth opens a door back to Booker's baptism, over twenty years prior. Booker realizes that is not the same place, and then he meets multiple versions of his daughter, all from different worlds. They reveal that, when he rejected the baptism, he created another universe—one in which he did accept the baptism. In the universe where he accepted the baptism, he changed his name, and went on to build Columbia, become infertile, and take Anna away from Booker—her real father".

Now I'm like - what the hell [Derp]? Booker actually created a branch (or a different reality) by his choice? So, to prevent the events of BI, NO choice is supposed to be made? That's why the answer is sacrifice?
Yes. Think of the baptism event as the trunk of a tree. Accepting the baptism creates one branch, rejecting the baptism creates another branch. To prevent Booker from being "born again" as Comstock - you can't just cut one of the branches, you need to cut off all the branches from the trunk. Then, new life can grow. A life where Booker never has to sell Anna, because Comstock isn't alive to make the deal.
Then, I guess, Elizabeth should have taken him to the first baptizing scene, where Preacher Witting was surrounded by other men and where Booker actually made his choice...
Coupla questions that I don't know if they got answers:

What happened after Booker's baptism at the beginning of the game when Booker was baptized (to the point where it seems like he was drowned) , ended up in his office, then ended up in Columbia? Was he killed? If so, how was he revived?

After he, songbird, and Elizabeth fall into the water shortly after meeting her, you end up in your office with Elizabeth in zombie 'save the girl and wipe away the debt' mode, then, she revives you on the beach. Were you both killed, and if so, who revived her?

Evan900 said: 4 out of 5?


4 out of 5 you missed and the one you hit ( when she says 4 out of 5 ) you hit her magnetiv field ;)
So I'm trying to figure out how the infinite universes vs single choice works. On one hand you can say that each choice in one universe creates infinite possibilities. Like a liner line with new lines branching out of it, where each branch expands into infinite branches and each one of those infinite branches does so as well, but should you have the power to see into the infinite multiverses like Elizabeth, you could single out that single point in that one universe where it all stems from - the "core universe" and change it.
The counter argument is that since we're dealing with infinite choices and possibilities, can there even be a core universe? Wouldn't there be infinite ways in which he becomes Comstock? Therefore altering his choice in one universe won't matter.

I think in order to make sense of it, we need to understand the story has its own rules and we choose whether we accept or reject them, but we can't argue outside those rules. And in Bioshock infinite, the rule is constants and variables. While there are variables creating different realities upon different realities etc in all possible directions, they all play around the same set constants - like how there's always a lighthouse. In one reality the lighthouse has a bronze door. In another the lighthouse has a metal door. In another one it's 2 floors high, in a different universe it's 3... different variables, same constants. It can never get too random and chaotic.
This is what Elizabeth meant by "We swim in different oceans but land on the same shore" and only someone omniscient like Elizabeth at that point can see the constants.

Another constant, or shore, is the baptism. .In all universes where Booker exists in all his variable possibilities, he always makes the choice to create Comstock or stay Booker, at the baptism, or rather at a baptism (because they are slightly different in each universe and not the same one). I don't really know what happens next - maybe she converged all possible realities on this one constant so that his choice ripples and erases Comstock from all universes? Maybe that's why we see all the different Elizabeths, maybe they're all the variable Elizabeths taking their versions of the successful Booker into this single point? What I am sure is that in the final moment she didn't just take him back in time to the point where the Booker we control made the choice, because a minute or so earlier she actually did that and in his universe he was surrounded by his squadmates and in the final scene, they were gone.


In short, I think the point is that there is no core universe but there is a core choice shared in all realities.
I have a theory and I'd like someone to refute it.

We all know that it cuts to black before the last Elizabeth disappears from the 'drowning scene.' We'll call this "lighthouse X". Giving Booker access to "Lighthouse X" and having him die there destroys all other "Lighthouses" that have a Comstock.

Does their internal logic prevent "Lighthouse X" from existing at that point? Or just the branches of Lighthouse X?

From what we know from the scene after the credits, Booker has a consciousness in 1893 that possibly still has Elizabeth. This is a reasonable assumption given that it wouldn't make much sense to have a crib there otherwise. Let's assume he does and that Elizabeth grows up under Booker's care:

Is it possible, according to the internal logic of the game, that the Elizabeth raised by Booker could still acquire the ability to traverse the multiverse and play a part of the events in "Lighthouse X"? That SHE is the "last Elizabeth" and does in fact continue to exist?

furou said: So I'm trying to figure out how the infinite universes vs single choice works. On one hand you can say that each choice in one universe creates infinite possibilities. Like a liner line with new lines branching out of it, where each branch expands into infinite branches and each one of those infinite branches does so as well, but should you have the power to see into the infinite multiverses like Elizabeth, you could single out that single point in that one universe where it all stems from - the "core universe" and change it.
The counter argument is that since we're dealing with infinite choices and possibilities, can there even be a core universe? Wouldn't there be infinite ways in which he becomes Comstock? Therefore altering his choice in one universe won't matter.
I think in order to make sense of it, we need to understand the story has its own rules and we choose whether we accept or reject them, but we can't argue outside those rules. And in Bioshock infinite, the rule is constants and variables. While there are variables creating different realities upon different realities etc in all possible directions, they all play around the same set constants - like how there's always a lighthouse. In one reality the lighthouse has a bronze door. In another the lighthouse has a metal door. In another one it's 2 floors high, in a different universe it's 3... different variables, same constants. It can never get too random and chaotic.
This is what Elizabeth meant by "We swim in different oceans but land on the same shore" and only someone omniscient like Elizabeth at that point can see the constants.
Another constant, or shore, is the baptism. .In all universes where Booker exists in all his variable possibilities, he always makes the choice to create Comstock or stay Booker, at the baptism, or rather at a baptism (because they are slightly different in each universe and not the same one). I don't really know what happens next - maybe she converged all possible realities on this one constant so that his choice ripples and erases Comstock from all universes? Maybe that's why we see all the different Elizabeths, maybe they're all the variable Elizabeths taking their versions of the successful Booker into this single point? What I am sure is that in the final moment she didn't just take him back in time to the point where the Booker we control made the choice, because a minute or so earlier she actually did that and in his universe he was surrounded by his squadmates and in the final scene, they were gone.
In short, I think the point is that there is no core universe but there is a core choice shared in all realities.




no one says there are universes without Comstock but maybe there just isn't the one where he buys Anne ;)

Ryan615 said: I have a theory and I'd like someone to refute it.
We all know that it cuts to black before the last Elizabeth disappears from the 'drowning scene.' We'll call this "lighthouse X". Giving Booker access to "Lighthouse X" and having him die there destroys all other "Lighthouses" that have a Comstock.
Does their internal logic prevent "Lighthouse X" from existing at that point? Or just the branches of Lighthouse X?
From what we know from the scene after the credits, Booker has a consciousness in 1893 that possibly still has Elizabeth. This is a reasonable assumption given that it wouldn't make much sense to have a crib there otherwise. Let's assume he does and that Elizabeth grows up under Booker's care:
Is it possible, according to the internal logic of the game, that the Elizabeth raised by Booker could still acquire the ability to traverse the multiverse and play a part of the events in "Lighthouse X"? That SHE is the "last Elizabeth" and does in fact continue to exist?



That's an extremely interesting point, and could explain for how Booker seems to think she's not the Elizabeth he's been traveling with the whole time. At the final baptism scene, after Booker asks why they are here again, he turns around, and says something along the lines of: "Wait, who are..." She is also not wearing whatever necklace you chose for her earlier. Perhaps this Elizabeth is the one that has been raised under Booker's care? I don't know. It's a thought.

Eastlex said:

furou said: So I'm trying to figure out how the infinite universes vs single choice works. On one hand you can say that each choice in one universe creates infinite possibilities. Like a liner line with new lines branching out of it, where each branch expands into infinite branches and each one of those infinite branches does so as well, but should you have the power to see into the infinite multiverses like Elizabeth, you could single out that single point in that one universe where it all stems from - the "core universe" and change it.
The counter argument is that since we're dealing with infinite choices and possibilities, can there even be a core universe? Wouldn't there be infinite ways in which he becomes Comstock? Therefore altering his choice in one universe won't matter.
I think in order to make sense of it, we need to understand the story has its own rules and we choose whether we accept or reject them, but we can't argue outside those rules. And in Bioshock infinite, the rule is constants and variables. While there are variables creating different realities upon different realities etc in all possible directions, they all play around the same set constants - like how there's always a lighthouse. In one reality the lighthouse has a bronze door. In another the lighthouse has a metal door. In another one it's 2 floors high, in a different universe it's 3... different variables, same constants. It can never get too random and chaotic.
This is what Elizabeth meant by "We swim in different oceans but land on the same shore" and only someone omniscient like Elizabeth at that point can see the constants.
Another constant, or shore, is the baptism. .In all universes where Booker exists in all his variable possibilities, he always makes the choice to create Comstock or stay Booker, at the baptism, or rather at a baptism (because they are slightly different in each universe and not the same one). I don't really know what happens next - maybe she converged all possible realities on this one constant so that his choice ripples and erases Comstock from all universes? Maybe that's why we see all the different Elizabeths, maybe they're all the variable Elizabeths taking their versions of the successful Booker into this single point? What I am sure is that in the final moment she didn't just take him back in time to the point where the Booker we control made the choice, because a minute or so earlier she actually did that and in his universe he was surrounded by his squadmates and in the final scene, they were gone.
In short, I think the point is that there is no core universe but there is a core choice shared in all realities.


no one says there are universes without Comstock but maybe there just isn't the one where he buys Anne


You didn't understand and that wasn't my point. I wrote about how it doesn't make sense that a choice in one universe would effect all other realities and how that ties with the final baptism scene's logic...
Gah, it's too bad this discussion is dying down. It's one of the more comprehensive ones. Guess there's too many competing explanations out there now.

Ryan615 said: I have a theory and I'd like someone to refute it.
We all know that it cuts to black before the last Elizabeth disappears from the 'drowning scene.' We'll call this "lighthouse X". Giving Booker access to "Lighthouse X" and having him die there destroys all other "Lighthouses" that have a Comstock.
Does their internal logic prevent "Lighthouse X" from existing at that point? Or just the branches of Lighthouse X?
From what we know from the scene after the credits, Booker has a consciousness in 1893 that possibly still has Elizabeth. This is a reasonable assumption given that it wouldn't make much sense to have a crib there otherwise. Let's assume he does and that Elizabeth grows up under Booker's care:
Is it possible, according to the internal logic of the game, that the Elizabeth raised by Booker could still acquire the ability to traverse the multiverse and play a part of the events in "Lighthouse X"? That SHE is the "last Elizabeth" and does in fact continue to exist?



If all Bookers that go to the Baptism die then none get the choice to become Comstock, But there is still the Bookers that didn't go to the Baptism this could be who we see after the credits. It could be possible that Elizabeth survives cause of her powers but the only Elizabeths that have this power I believe are the ones that lost their finger, Existing in two universes at the same time.
Does Elizabeth always know that Booker is her father? Or that he's also Comstock? If so, she never seems to let on that she knows until the very end of the game, if even then.
Nah, she's just as clueless as Booker is until the siphon is destroyed and she has the power to see all the doors. After that she's basically omniscient.
What I want to know, is why Booker turns into this evil Comstock who tortures his own daughter and creates an essentially racist neighbourhood? Was he a bad man before?

Jubilee said: What I want to know, is why Booker turns into this evil Comstock who tortures his own daughter and creates an essentially racist neighbourhood? Was he a bad man before?



Comstock is basically a bad guy; specifically a fanatic. He talks several times about "moral sickness" and about grooming the Lamb to take over for him. Evidently that's more important than the mental/physical health of his own daughter.

The torture scene toward the end is meant to (a) cleanse her mind (hence the lack of anesthetic), and (b) siphon off her powers so the brainwashing can begin. In one version of the universe, that process succeeds and Elizabeth successfully "ascends the throne" and bombs NYC.
I read through alot of this and didnt see it brought up, so if someone did sorry.

Ive seen many complaints in regards to the source universe, or how could ending one booker result in all possible bookers necessary for the circle to be broken, to be ended.

the letuces state several times that within time everything is, was, and will be. its all the same, there is no forward or back. so with anna being in her omnipotent state, it stands to reason that we dont see the other bookers being drown at the end, is because we are viewing from that single bookers limited personal perspective. so with annas power, it is possible that anna spanned across all universes, and drowned all bookers at the same exact moment.

now whether you want to view that as the annas belonging to each world were informed one by one, or the anna we interact with through out the game went into each world, took place of the anna that currently existed in that world, to end booker one by one, or simply with annas omnipotent power, she expanded her consciousness to all annas that exist and performed the act together.

seeing as she has full grasp of time and space it doesnt seem impossible that she would be to create a collective consciousness, and act to end the cycle.

how this effects the very ending after the credits i dont know. I loved the game and i enjoyed your explanation
An interesting thing I noticed. The Bathysphere in Rapture only reacts to Ryan's DNA (And subsequently Jacks DNA, as they share this.) Is it not possible this means Booker also shares their DNA?

And when faced with the Elizabeth's, the one from behind the doorway had the pendant, but wasn't seen going through. Booker directly faces a new Elizabeth and does not recognize her.

Perhaps our Elizabeth never leaves the light-houses. The pendants sometimes switch through key parts of the game as well.
Finally finished!

And like everyone, needed an explanation of what I just watched (plus I did it over like 2 months).
Now, how does this fit in with Booker and Elizabeth getting their own DLC?

Speculate!

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